Hi, everyone. As promised, here is Ken’s masterful research project about the bloodlines of Llewelyn Fawr and Joanna. It is truly fascinating; what I wouldn’t have given to have access to this information twenty-five years ago while I was researching and writing Here Be Dragons! Ken, we’re totally in your debt.
Children of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth
The primary purpose of this exercise is to try, by a review of genealogist’s opinions on the subject and by consulting some known original sources, to determine who was the mother of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Was she Joanna, wife of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Born circa.1188, died. February 1237) or was she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch of Rhos, mistress of Llywelyn, born circa. 1168, died??
I’ll follow this with a secondary investigation into the possible existence of a daughter of Llywelyn and Joanna named Susanna, given over to King Henry 111 as a hostage in 1228 with her custody being granted to Sir Nicholas Verdun and his wife Clementia.
The opinions of the Genealogists that I have studied are just that, opinions, and they differ greatly. No definite proof exists either way, but I have to say that the majority hold for Gwladus to be the daughter of Joanna. This is particularly true of the genealogists of the descendants of the De Braose family, but they may well have particular motives for wanting their family to be tied to both the Welsh and English royal houses!
The following list of Llywelyn’s numerous legitimate and illegitimate children appears to be generally accepted by all the genealogists that I have studied with the exception of differences over whether number 9 really existed. The dates of birth given below are also disputed by some:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, born circa.1199, died 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, born circa.1206, died 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1206? died circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1208? died circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince of Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (doubts about this date, see later), died 25 February 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1209 died 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1210, died 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, possible twin to Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, born circa 1214? Died 1259?
There is much argument over the identity of the mothers of these children. There is general agreement that the only certain children of Llywelyn’s marriage to Joanna are Dafydd, who became Prince of Wales and Ellen (Helen) who married (1) John the Scot, son of the earl of Chester and (2) Robert de Quincy. Although opinion is divided over the mothers of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and Susanna, the majority of the genealogists I have studied lean towards their mother being Joanna.
This is partly due to their supposed dates of birth as well as their marriages to various marcher lords who, one supposes, would have sought to align their houses to that of their neighbour, the Prince of North Wales and his wife, the king of England’s daughter. It is felt that these lords of the March would not have had so much interest or political motivation in marrying off their sons to the illegitimate daughters of a Welsh prince with a Welsh woman.
As to the names of these children, whether by Joanna, Tangwystl or others, they were all named after members of Llywelyn’s family:
Llywelyn’s mother was named ‘Margred’ and his maternal grandmother was named ‘Susanna’ of Gwynedd. His paternal grandmother was named ‘Gwladus’. The parents of his grandmother Susanna, were ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and ‘Angharad’ of Flint and both their names were given to Llywelyn’s children. This Susanna also had a sister named ‘Gwenllian’, the same name as Llywelyn’s great grandmother. Only ‘Ellen’s’ name remains a mystery, there seems to be no-one named Ellen or Helen, except perhaps an ‘Eleanor’ on Joanna’s side (Eleanor of Aquitaine, mother of Joanna’s father King John).
I will concentrate on the known historical ‘facts’ on Gruffudd (as he is pertinent to the story of whether Gwladus was his blood sister or only a half-sister) and Gwladus only, before moving on to consider whether Susanna existed:
1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn
Gruffudd was without doubt, Llywelyn’s illegitimate son by Tangwystl, born between 1196 and 1200. Llywelyn and Tangwystl were not married and their relationship was not recognised by the church as a valid marriage. Before his marriage to Joanna and with no legitimate male heir, Llywelyn had been actively seeking an advantageous match. In 1203 he received a papal dispensation to marry a daughter of the King of the Isle of Man. A betrothal was probably entered into, but the marriage did not take place. However, following Llywelyn’s homage to King John on John’s return from France in 1204, the offer of marriage to Joanna, given as a royal favour by John, was a dynastic opportunity not to be missed. The marriage took place in 1205.
According to J. Beverley Smith, referring to a charter between King John and Llywelyn in 1211 – “There were finally two crucially important provisions concerning Llywelyn’s son Gruffudd. He was given to the king’s custody and placed entirely at his will. Llywelyn agreed that if he were to have no heir by Joan his wife he would cede all his lands to the king, both those which he released by the terms of his charter and those which he retained, except for whatever the king might decide to give to Gruffudd. The son, a bastard by a Welsh woman named Tangwystl, would have nothing as of right ….” (Note: Some argue that as this charter was made in 1211, it is clear that Joanna’s son Dafydd had not yet been born. Others counter this with the idea that Dafydd may have been born (1208?), but the charter took into account that Dafydd, or any other male child by Joanna, may not have survived to inherit!).
It appears that John and Llywelyn agreed that the marriage pact with Joanna was subject to Llywelyn agreeing to disinherit his ‘illegitimate’ son Gruffudd and for him to ensure that only his first born ‘legitimate’ male heir (by Joanna) would succeed him. This was possibly to ensure that only Joanna and Llywelyn’s (Anglo/Welsh) children would become part of the European and aristocratic ruling houses and would elevate the house of Gwynedd to a higher status than the other Welsh ruling houses. John also hoped, no doubt, that the union would lessen the possibility of future problems between England and Wales. As Joanna’s dowry John provided Llywelyn with the manors of Knighton and Norton and Ellesmere (of which we will hear more later).
Gruffudd never accepted being passed over for the succession and many in Wales supported his case. He spent many years imprisoned in Wales and London and died on St. David’s day 1244, while trying to escape from the Tower of London.
2. Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn
There is much argument in genealogical circles as to who was the mother of Gwladus. It is true that there is no document or charter that states, ‘Gwladus, daughter of Llywelyn, Prince of Gwynedd and his wife Joanna of England’, or some such! Life would be made much easier if that were the case! The arguments that follow then cannot be ‘proven’, but they do provide a logical process for arriving at a conclusion:
One faction of genealogists insist that chronologically, Gwladus must have been the daughter of Tangwystl, and possibly born circa 1200 to 1201, because in 1215, she was ‘married’ to Reginald de Braose, 5th Baron of Brecknock (probably in his 40’s). She would, they argue, have therefore had to have been of marriageable age in 1215. Llywelyn and Joanna married in 1205, and if she was Joanna’s daughter, allowing a year or so after their marriage for her birth, she would have been only 8 or possibly 9 yrs old at the time of this ‘marriage’!
Another of their arguments is based on Peter C Bartrum’s ‘Welsh Genealogies,’ which gives the following table, which has been the subject of much discussion and sometimes violent argument:
“Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd
m. Margred ferch Madog (B1 ap C3)
|
Llywelyn d. 1240
(1) Joan d. King John m. 1205
(a) Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch (LL. Ho. 1)
|
Gwladus Ddu d. 1251
(1) Reginald de Braose d. 1228
(2) Ralph 11 Mortimer d. 1246 “
Bartrum does not give his sources and this table does not clearly show that Gwladus is either the daughter of Tangwystl or of Joanna. It is therefore not of much help.
Interestingly, from what I have been able to read, these seem to be the main arguments that Tangwystl’s proposers have in favour of Gwladus being the daughter of Tangwystl.
The pro-Joanna faction has more strings to its bow!
The pro-Joanna faction’s response to the ‘chronological’ problem of the age of Gwladus at her marriage in 1215 includes the following:
a). The ‘marriage’ was in fact a politically motivated ‘betrothal’ of a young girl to a forty–something English Baron. The text of the Annales Prioratus de Wigornia, 1215, describing this arrangement uses the Latin word ‘Desponsavit’, which is taken to describe a ‘betrothal’ rather than a ‘marriage’. (I ‘googled’ this word in a Latin/English dictionary and it came up with the same answer – ‘betrothal!’).
In 1215, Reginald de Braose was a widower, his first wife Grace de Briwire having died. He had a son and heir, William (the William hung by Llywelyn in 1230) as well as other issue. In 1215, he was not therefore under any inheritance-driven desire to wed for the purpose of producing an heir. Reginald de Braose would certainly have wanted to strike a political alliance with Llywelyn and a betrothal and eventual marriage to a child so highly placed as Gwladus, particularly if she was the legitimate daughter of Llywelyn by King John’s daughter Joanna, would have made perfect sense for the advancement of the family Braose.
This betrothal and subsequent ‘marriage’ produced, in over 15 years, no offspring of whom anyone is aware and, it is quite possible that the ‘marriage’ was never consummated. Immediately upon marrying Ralph de Mortimer in 1230 however, Gwladus started to produce offspring! If, as the pro-Tangwystl faction would have it, Gwladus had been born circa 1201/02 (before Llywelyn’s marriage to Joanna), she would have been in her 30th year at least before she started to produce children! This is considered unlikely, given that she produced the children of Ralph over a nine year span, which would have put her into her near 40’s for the last born.
If however, Gwladus had been born (to Joanna) in 1206 or 1207, she would have only been 22 or so at Reginald’s death (1228) and between 23 and 24 at her marriage to Ralph de Mortimer.
b). Reginald died in 1228. In 1229, Gwladus, now an eligible widow aged about 24, accompanied Joanna’s legitimate son Dafydd to King Henry’s court, where he was to pay homage to Henry and to use his blood relation to the English king to obtain his support and recognition of him as Llywelyn’s sole heir.
There is much argument over why Gwladus made this trip with Dafydd. The pro-Tangwystl faction argue that Gwladus, recently widowed, ‘needed’ to seek a new husband and Dafydd’s audience provided an ideal moment for both Llywelyn and the Mortimers to obtain Henry’s blessing to a marriage between Gwladus and Ralph de Mortimer. Her visit therefore was purely personal and had nothing to do with any ‘support’ she was giving to Dafydd to effectively disinherit her blood-brother Gruffudd.
Alternatively, as she was now a widow and lonely, she just wanted to go to London and would be safer on the journey if she went with Dafydd!
The pro-Joanna faction counters the above with the following:
The clear purpose of Dafydd’s visit to London, apart from his duty of homage, was to seek the English crown’s recognition of him as heir to Llywelyn. If Gwladus was truly Gruffudd’s blood sister by Tangwystl, would she really have participated in his disinheritance? Gruffudd was languishing in prison in Degannwy at this time and what would Senena, wife of Gruffudd made of such a (in her eyes surely) betrayal by his blood sister?
The ‘closeness’ of Gwladus to the English crown is perhaps also demonstrated by the fact that she died at Windsor in 1251 while visiting Henry 111, possibly to attend the wedding of Henry’s daughter Margaret to Alexander 111, King of the Scots. Her relationship with him was apparently good as Henry appointed her son sheriff of Hereford.
c). Further evidence presented to support Gwladus being the daughter of Llywelyn and Joanna:
Chronicles:
There is a clear and unambiguous statement in the chronicle of Adam of Usk that Gwladus was the daughter of Llywelyn and Joanna. Adam knew the Mortimer family well and presumably had access to their archives. While Adam is a late-date witness and not altogether reliable, he is quite emphatic that Gwladus was Joanna’s daughter.
Property.
The manors of Knighton and Norton (and Ellesmere in Shropshire) were gifted by John to Llywelyn as Joanna’s portion upon their marriage in 1205. In fact, by circa 1218, the properties had still not been handed over to him and they were being held by the Mortimer family. Llywelyn petitioned Henry 111 to force the Mortimers to hand the properties over and Henry’s council vindicated Llywelyn’s claim and held him blameless if he had to resort to action to regain his rights to the lands gifted under his marriage. The lands came into Llywelyn’s possession in 1218 and the Mortimers were forced to drop their illegal claim to them.
Upon the marriage of Gwladus to Ralph de Mortimer in 1230, Llywelyn and Joan bequeathed Knighton and Norton to Ralph because they were part of their daughter’s inheritance. This followed a similar passing of Joanna’s magaritum lands (Ellesmere?) to Gwladus’ sister Ellen, Joanna’s proven daughter, when she married John the Scot in 1220 and goes to show that this transfer of lands to Gwladus was consistent with those to other blood family members.
Children of Gwladus and Ralph de Mortimer.
1. Roger de Mortimer, born ca. 1231
Heir and successor to Ralph de Mortimer and probably named in honour of Ralph’s father, Roger de Mortimer.
2. Hugh de Mortimer, born ca. 1233
Probably named in honour of Ralph’s grandfather, Hugh de Mortimer (d. ca. 1180)
3. John de Mortimer, born ca. 1235
There is no prior use of the name John in the family of Ralph de Mortimer and we can assume that if Gwladus’ mother was a Welshwoman, it would not have been used in that family either. Further, if Gwladus was Gruffudd’s blood-sister, how likely would it be for her to name her son after the father of the man (King Henry) and the woman Joanna who had brought political ruin to her own immediate family?
Everything points therefore to the choice of the name John for her son being in memory of her paternal grandfather through Joanna.
4. Joan de Mortimer, born ca. 1236 Wife of Peter Corbet, 1st Lord Corbet (d. before 1300).
Surely evidence that Gwladus wanted to honour her mother of the same name. If she had been Tangwystl’s daughter, this would certainly have been an insult. (Note: Gwladus’ sister Ellen, in similar fashion, named a daughter Joan for their mother.)
5. Peter de Mortimer, born ca. 1237 of which virtually nothing is known.
6. Isolda de Mortimer, born ca. 1239
Assumptions made that her name is a Welsh equivalent of Isabel. If correct, probably named after Ralph’s mother, Isabel de Ferrieres.
Conclusion
‘Medieval Genealogy’ as described by one eminent genealogist, ‘is not properly conducted by piling assumption on top of speculation on top of plausibility on top of likelihood and then coming to a “conclusion”!’
However, while that statement is undoubtedly true, a review of the opinions of several professional genealogists provides a general consensus that Gwladus Ddu can be reasonably identified as the daughter of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth by Joanna, daughter (subsequently legitimised) of John, King of England.
Susanna ferch Llywelyn
The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, under Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and on the subject of his daughter, Susanna states: ‘The fourth daughter, Susanna, does not appear in the pedigrees; in November 1228 she was put in the care of Nicholas de Verdon (un) and his wife and that is the only reference to her.’
My first step therefore was to look up the genealogy of this Nicholas de Verdun. I found a reference in the CPR for 1225-1232, p.230. In 1228, a certain Nicholas de Verdun, appeared to be in of Henry 111’s favor, and this favor manifested itself when the king’s … ‘dear and faithful Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clementia were granted custody of ‘Susanna’ our niece, the daughter of Llywelyn, prince of North Wales and Joanna his wife, to be brought up safe and secure without all injury.’
Susanna was almost certainly being held in England as a hostage for the good behaviour of her father, Llywelyn, who had been pursuing an expansive phase, fighting with the Marshall William 11 and also Hubert de Burgh. Henry needed to bring him to heel somewhat.
The genealogists all consider it significant that Nicholas’ wife Clementia is included here as, under normal circumstances, she would not be mentioned. The fact that she is so named suggests that she had some interest in Susanna. When Susanna at some later date was given over to another guardian, the wife of that guardian was not mentioned.
What follows here is a theory advanced by some eminent genealogists, but it is fair to say that the conclusions are hotly contested!
This theory leads to a delightful and curious ‘twist’ in the story of Joanna, which may interest fans of HBD!
On the surface, there would be nothing to suggest any connection between the hostage, Susanna of Wales and Clementia, wife of Nicholas de Verdun. However, the experience of some genealogists with foreign hostages, particularly young ones, has been that they were often placed with relatives, if any were available.
Now, it is known that the mother of Joanna was called Clementia (Clemence?), one of several mistresses of King John (see also HBD!).
Jumping forward to 1236, there is an entry in the Tewkesbury annals which pertains to Joanna’s mother as “Queen Clemencie!” It reads in part:
Year 1236:
Obiit domina Johanna domina Wallia, uxor Lewelini filia Regis Johannis et regina Clemencie, iii. Kal. Aprilis.”
“(Died lady Joanna, lady of Wales, wife of Llywelyn, daughter of King John and Queen Clementia, 3 Kal. April.”
Reference: Henry Richard Luard, Annales Monastici, 1 (1864): 101.
In this case the monk was evidently indulging in medieval legalism. Before her death, Joanna had been legitimised by the Pope. On the basis of that legitimisation, the Tewksbury monk evidently took it upon himself to elevate Joanna’s mother to the status of Queen, as if her mother had been King John’s wife! It is a fact however, that King John and Clementia were never married. By referring to Joanna’s mother as “Queen” Clementia, the monk who recorded Joanna’s death was showing his extreme respect for Joanna, but not attempting to alter the true facts.
As for the identity of Clementia de Verdun, Paget shows that she was the daughter of Roger de Dauntsey, of Wiltshire. One genealogist considers it significant that Clementia hailed from Wiltshire as he has noticed that King John had a strong attachment to that county, it being the home of his most trusted allies, the Longespee, Marshall and Basset families and Geoffrey Fitz Peter. This would indicate that King John spent some time there and the possibility of an amorous liaison with Clementia exists.
Genealogists have discovered that the name ‘Clementia’ was extremely rare among English noblewomen of this period. In one table of women’s names that was compiled, there were only two occurrences of the name “Clementia” out of a total of 1407 women in the sample! The fact that anyone named Clementia would be associated with Susanna is considered significant.
So! The evidence is suggestive, but not conclusive, that in 1228, Susanna, as a hostage, was given over to the care of her maternal grandmother, now wife of Nicholas de Verdun!!
The Scottish genealogists of the MacDuffs’ hold that Susanna ferch Llywelyn was born 1214 in Gwynnedd, Wales and died c. 1259 in Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland. She married Malcolm MacDuff, Earl of Fife in 1230 and had two children: Sir Colbran MacDuff, Earl of Fife, born 1245, died 1270 and MacDuff MacDuff born 1247.
Of course, there are counter arguments to all this supposition! King John had many mistresses and possibly as many as seven illegitimate children. The mother of Joanna would have been born circa 1172 and marriageable circa 1184. Joanna herself was born circa 1191 (14 yrs old at the time of her marriage to Llywelyn). Rohese, the known legitimate daughter of Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clementia was born circa 1210-1213. If Clementia was the mother of Joanna, she would have been in her late 30’s, early 40’s when giving birth to Rohese! Not impossible, some say, but improbable.
Conclusion:
We will most probably never know the truth. Possibly however, because I want to believe it, I think that Susanna ferch Llywelyn was the last daughter of Llywelyn and Joanna. That she was given over as hostage to King Henry 111 in 1228 and was passed to the safe care of her maternal grandmother Clementia, wife of Sir Nicholas de Verdun.
This is such an excellent and beautiful work! Thank you for researching it Ken, and for sharing, Sharon! I especially liked the twist with Susanna, even if it is improbable. I think I’ll join Sharon in the belief that Gwaldys was Joanna’s daughter.
Although, to keep my belief in the beautiful love story of Joanna and Llewelyn, I’ll probably have to accept that the rest of the children were hers too…
Hi Sharon
What an excitement to see something I have written published on your blog! Wow!
My hope is that it generates some interesting questions and/or arguments/ different opinions, particularly from devotees of HBD.
I have some additional info on Llywelyn’s other children (by Joanna or Tangwystyl), but will wait to see if their is sufficient interest before submitting it. I don’t want to seem as if I’m hogging your blog!!!
‘There is,’ not ‘their is’ – of course!!
Very interesting genealogies! I had heard that Gwladys was their daughter but not all the reasoning as to why. The research he has is very compelling and interesting. I absolutely love the thought that Susanna was their daughter, and went to live with her maternal grandmother as a “hostage,” I can see how it would have made it so much easier for Joanna to give up her daughter to the crown if she knew she would be under the custody of her mother.
I’m going to have to agree with Koby that I’ll also have to accept the rest of the children were Joanna’s too, since I can’t believe that Llewelyn would have fathered children with another woman while married to Joanna. 🙂
Wow! And I agree with Heidi, it just had to be true! But seriously that was some kinda research Ken, very thorough and impressive, and informative. Whats your next project?
Thanks you so much Ken. This is wonderful. I liked the logic you used to come to your conclusions.
Sharon…..strangely enough, I have been to Dunfermline too, and have a friend there who is a genealogist. I will ask her if she can find anything about Susanna there. Dumfermline was the home, and original burial place of St Margaret of Scotland and Malcolm Canmore, who were direct line ancestors of King John. It would make perfect sense for a granddaughter of John to be there.
Thanks Ken, and thanks Sharon for posting it.
It is interesting to think of the difference between cultures that have a written record of births and those that have only an oral tradition which means that the children are drilled in the family lines.
Do our more modern records prevent such mysteries, or are there still loopholes that mean in the future there could be questions?
Thanks Ken for all your hard work. I hope that Llewelyn was faithful to Joanna and that all the children younger than Ellen were Joanna’s. I want to preserve the beautiful love story in HBD’s.
I think you will find that the chronicle of Adam of Usk states that Gwladys was descended from Llewelyn’s marriage to Joanna. Of course Adam, writing in the 1390s, had a motive for saying this, as he was bigging up his patrons, the Mortimers, as heirs to Richard II. Descent from a Welsh prince was obviously a boon for the Welsh constituency, while the English would appreciate the lineage from King John.
On the other hand, given that Adam was a Mortimer associate, it seems likely to me he had access to their records/traditions, and would scarcely go against what they themselves believed true.
Apologies – should have read in more detail before posting as you’ve clearly picked this reference up!
Ken, I am astounded! What thorough and interesting research – it seems like a true labour of love! Thank you, Sharon, for posting this on your blog for us all to share!
I think I may have got lost somewhere, though, could you clarify why (and how it is known):
“The mother of Joanna would have been born circa 1172 and marriageable circa 1184.”?
If Joanna was born c.1191 it seems her mother could have been born a few years after 1172 and still been young enough to marry/roll in the hay with and old enough to conceive. Or do we know how old she was when she gave birth to Joanna?
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, I just got a bit confused and I’m blaming my delightful 2 year old for lack of sleep!
But Ken, if you could shine a light my way, I would appreciate it greatly!
Very good question Beth. This is where things, as they say, get difficult!!
Rohese, the known daughter of Clementia and Nicholas de Verdun was born circa 1210-1213. If Clementia was also the mother of Joanna, (married in 1205 at age 14 – therefore d.o.b. 1191), and assuming that 13 was the youngest age at which she could give birth, Clementia would have been born circa 1178 (1191 – 13 = 1178). That would make her 32-35 at the birth of Rohese. Not impossible!
A contrary theory to the one I outlined above (that Clementia de Verdun was the ex-mistress of King John and therefore the mother of Joanna and the grandmother of Gwladus) is a record that Nicholas de Verdun married a ‘Clemence de Boteler,’ born in 1182 in Steeple Lavington, Wiltshire, who married him in 1202. (Note. Both Clementia’s from Wiltshire, favourite haunt of King John!).
So. Are these Clementia’s one and the same? One born circa 1172, the other born circa 1182??
Impossible to know. Chroniclers gave scant attention to the birth and death of daughters during this period and that is why I let my HF side take over and thought that it really was likely that when handing Gwladus over as a hostage, Llywelyn and Joanna would have been happier in the knowledge that the ‘Clementia’in question was Joanna’s mother!
What do you think?
This was fabulous, Ken — thanks for doing the research and sharing it. How well known are the birth dates of the other children (Gwenllian and the twins)? Why is the speculation all about Gwladys and not them? I’d think that the existence of two other male heirs would have been noted somewhere (not to mention the twin aspect, which would also have been notable).
What was Llywelyn thinking, signing away Wales, if Joanna hadn’t produced any heirs? I guess it wouldn’t be quite as bad if Dafydd had already been born at the time, but what if Joanna and Dafydd had both died prematurely? It makes more sense if the twins were hers and had been born by then too, but that makes the wording of the charter even stranger if he already had 3 heirs by Joanna. And if they weren’t hers, why would the charter explicitly disinherit Gryffudd but not the twins?
And I was also wondering the same thing as Beth. Alternatively, is it possible that Clementia, wife of Nicholas, could have been Joanna’s younger half-sister, named after her mother? Or is the lack of Clementias in the rolls evidence against that?
Looks like our comments crossed in the mail, Ken — if Clementia was born in 1182, that makes her the perfect age to be Joanna’s older half-sister, no? Presumably John would have been at least as likely to take an attractive young widow as a mistress than a 13yo girl, right?
Hi Suzanne and everyone, thanks for the compliments. I will try to answer all questions on the paper, but will have to wait until after the weekend! I have to make an unplanned trip up to London to help my daughter find some accommodation as she has been let down badly by her university accommodation bureau!!
Interesting research – thanks for posting!
Ken, thanks so much for the great work. Hope the housing problem worked out well. Is anything else known about Clemence de Boteler or the de Boteler family? Is there any significance to the lack of capitalization of regina given its presence in Regis?
Ken – thank you for taking the time to answer my ponderings!
I think the whole thing is just so intriguing.
Right, so, “assuming that 13 was the youngest age at which she could give birth, Clementia would have been born circa 1178 (1191 – 13 = 1178)”: if Clem was that young, then it makes the possibility that she and the 1182 Clemence are one and the same. What’s the harm in becoming a mysterious 4 years younger when it comes to a lady’s birthdate, after all!
I definitely want to believe that Joanna’s daughter, even as a hostage, was sent to live with a blood relative. I am hoping that Clem was her mother. I wonder if there’s any recorded information about Joanna visiting the de Verdun estates, or of Clem and Joanna meeting? It’s such a shame that so few letters from this time period survive!
It’s times like these that I wish for a mirror into the past (or a time-machine, if I’m being greedily honest!) as, whilst I love mysteries like this, I need them to be solved! I hope that you will continue to dig through records, Ken, and keep us all updated with any new (new to us!) information that you find out because I know that I will continue to be interested in these people for many years.
I hope you don’t mind, Ken, that I’m posing all my Joanna questions to you now but I was musing through Wikipedia, which stated Joanna was the daughter of John and a woman called Clemence Pinel (referencing Charles Cawley Medieval Lands, Wales as the source). Do you have any comment or information about this claim? I know Wikipedia is often a slightly dodgy source of information, so this could quite easily fall into that category…
Anyway, I hope that you sort out your daughter’s housing situation with as much ease as possible and that she settles in well! Looking forward to your comments when you return.
If it helps at all, I found the online version of Charles Cawley’s Medieval Lands which gives the following information without stating from where he found it (as far as I can tell!):
LLYWELYN ap Iorwerth, son of IORWERTH Drwyndwyn (“flat nose”) Prince of Gwynedd & his wife Marared of Powys (1173-11 Apr 1240[39]).
He succeeded in 1194 as LLYWELYN Fawr (“the Great”) Prince of Gwynedd, Prince of All Wales. The Annales Cambriæ name “Lewelinus filius Gervasii filii Owini Guynet…princeps Walliæ”[40]. The Annales Londonienses record the death “Id Apr” in 1240 of “Lewelinus princeps Norwalliæ”[41].
m firstly —.
m secondly (1205) JOAN [of England], illegitimate daughter of JOHN King of England & his mistress Clementia Pinel (-30 Mar 1237).
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Llywellyndied1240B
Thank you Ken for such a wonderful research. I was thrilled as I read and absorb all this fascinating information. And yes, tell us more!
Oh, I thought of one more argument against Clementia being Joanna’s mother (inspired by the monk’s reference to Queen Clementia). You can tell me if it makes sense or if it’s something no-one would have cared about back then. When Joanna was legitimized, presumably the basis for that was the theoretical possibility that John and Clemence could have plighted troth. However, if Clemence had still been alive when John married Isabella, then if any plight troth had actually existed it would have nullified their marriage and made her children bastards! Obviously Henry would never have done anything to call his own legitimacy into question. Can we then conclude from that that Clemence must have have been dead at the time of John’s marriage? Or am I reading too much into it?
Hi, everyone! I’m back in sunny Cornwall, while my daughter Nathalie is now a somewhat tearfull resident of a Post-Grad residence near St. Pancras in London! She misses her Dad and Mum!!!
One upside of the trip was (apart from a bit of Dad/Daughter bonding!) that we were able to visit Westminster Abbey and the Tower of London, both of which I was able to see with new eyes, given my (fairly recent) interest in all things medieval!
What an amazing experience to see the tombs of Henry 111 and Edward 1! To stand where they stood, to see, as they saw, the magnificent Abbey and the monument they had built to the glory of God and their favourite saints, particularly, in Henry’s case, the tomb of Edward the Confessor. Also, in more recent times, the magnificent tombs of Elizabeth 1 and Mary, Queen of Scots. We spent almost 4 hours there and I could have spent much more time – however, a hungry daughter!!!
On to the Tower of London and the Medieval Palace. To see the very halls and rooms where Henry was confronted by Simon de Montfort and the Barons, prior to the battles of Lewes and Evesham. To see the reconstruction of Edward and Eleanor’s bedroom, with, what they believe to be accurate reproductions, of the wall hangings, bed and decorations. A budding author’s mind blown away!!!
Finally, the gory descriptions by the Beefeaters of the arrivals of the condemned through Traitor’s Gate and the vivid descriptions of the beheadings, some successful with a single blow and others not quite so successfull, all told with much relish for the tourists!
Upon my return, there are many questions to answer and the subject of the children of Llywelyn and Joanna is very complex. I have started to research my responses, but it might take a couple of days more – In medieval speak therefore, I crave your indulgences!!
Wonderful research and it is great to know the decendants lived on. It makes the ending scenes of The Reconing more bearable…I still get teary eyed when I think of David’s two boys shut up forever in prison.
Hey Ken, if you ever do get around to responding to some of these points (and I completely understand that you have other things to occupy your time!), please post a shout-out on Sharon’s latest blog post, so I don’t have to keep coming back here and checking every couple of days, ok? 🙂
Hi Suzanne
I’ll post this on both blogs!
I sent Sharon my latest paper on the mother of Joanna a week ago, but I know she has been very busy with deadlines, blogs and facebook.
I’m sure she will post it very shortly and I think you’ll find it provides some interesting possible solutions and poses some further questions!
Joanna of England (Jeanne d’Angleterre) is not the same as Joanna (Jeanne/Joan of Wales/Jeanne de Galles/Joan of Gwynedd). Joanna/Joan was born before John succeeded to the throne on the death of his brother Richard in 1199. The Joan of England (Jeanne d’Angleterre) to whom history books refer is the Jeanne born after he had married Isabelle d’Anglouleme and also after he had become King of England. Her dates are 1210 to 1238. It is important not to confuse the two women (as many websites do)
Not sure why yahoo sent me to your site but I should probably I am now overall fascinated by the comments you have pulled together. How much effort did it take to begin to get so many internet users arriving to your pages? I am rather new to this.
Does anyone know where I can get a good book with barbecue recipes.
Thank you for this. Gwladus is a (very) great-grandmother of mine and it is wonderful to find such a thorough and well done examination of her maternal descent.
Wow! Its looking so beautiful…. Really superb work! Thanks very much for sharing such an interesting information. thanks!
I have been looking for this information everywhere! Thankyou
I used to be able to find good info from your blog articles.
Great information Ken. What information do you have on Anghared ?
I am presuming she was not Joanna’a daughter. I have read in a recent information book that her descendent Margaret married Owain Tudor’s grandfather which would make Henry Tudoe a descendant of Llewelyns.
Thank you, Sharon. I must read through all of this again, and again, and all the comments as well. I am very excited to have just stumbled across this blog. I recently acquired information in an old family bible that goes back to King John via Joan, Gwladys & Roger Mortimer, and their daughter, Janet, who I have listed as marrying Sir Andrew Perrot. I am a descendant through the Perrots, later the Newtons (de Cradock), Herberts, Albros, and a few other surnames.
I’ve just discovered you. I am feeling so sad because I am almost done with “Here Be Dragons” and I really tried to slow down. But I could not stop reading, I’ve stayed up nights in a row gladly to keep reading. It has been so long since I found an author I love. I just want you to know that I am also a writer and have been all my life, spent years working at bookstores, literature is my life, my love, so I speak from the heart. Now I will go out and buy every one of your books and I’m thrilled there are a lot to go through. But sadly I will miss Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, I have fallen deeply in love with him much to my husband’s mild concern! I’ve always loved reading about Llywelyn, don’t know how I ever overlooked this amazing masterpiece of yours. Beautiful style, lush use of history and characters that are real enough to feel like friends. Thank you so much for your hard work, I am now a loyal life time fan!
Thanks for helping me to get new concepts about desktops. I also possess the belief that certain of the best ways to maintain your notebook in primary condition is with a hard plastic-type case, or even shell, that fits over the top of one’s computer. A lot of these protective gear usually are model unique since they are made to fit perfectly within the natural housing. You can buy these directly from owner, or from third party sources if they are for your notebook, however its not all laptop can have a cover on the market. All over again, thanks for your tips.
It’s articles such as these which makes me go to your blog again and again. I usually know that I can find someting readworthy whenever i click around. All the best!
My family tree traits go back to were my bloodline is related to Llywelen and also a descent of Alfred the great
My partner and I absolutely love your blog and find a lot of your post’s to be precisely what I’m looking for. Do you offer guest writers to write content available for you? I wouldn’t mind composing a post or elaborating on many of the subjects you write with regards to here. Again, awesome blog!