The Mother of Joanna of Wales, wife of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth
The Children of Llywelyn and Joanna.
Following my post on the children of Llywelyn Fawr and Joanna and the responses it received, I checked again through the genealogical pages on the subject of Gwladus Ddu. While it is true, as several genealogists point out, that in the absence of definite proof one way or another, the identity of the mother of Gwladus Ddu must remain ‘unknown’, I found no reason to change my personal conclusion that her mother was Joanna and not Tangwystyl.
One further source on the subject of their children is the following abstract from the ‘Kings and Queens of Britain’ an authoritative guide, published by Oxford University Press, page 106:
‘Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, b.1173, son of Iorwerth Drwyndwn (‘Flatnose’) and Marared, daughter of Madog ap Maredudd; acc. east Gwynedd 1195; married Joan, illegitimate daughter of King John, 1205; issue: Gruffudd (illegitimate), Dafydd, Gwenllian, Helen, Gwladus, Margaret, Susanna; died 11 April 1240; buried: Aberconwy.’
The singling out of Gruffudd alone as ‘illegitimate’ is significant.
The Mother of Joanna
First, let me pay tribute to Sharon. Her research for ‘HBD’, ‘Falls the Shadow’ and ‘The Reckoning’, carried out before the advent of the Internet, was truly outstanding. Practically everything she has written in that trilogy stands close examination today.
To prove that it is not only me that thinks so, let me quote one genealogist who is a great fan of Sharon: “I am very fond of Sharon Kay Penman’s books. Even though they are not purely biographical, I feel more comfortable relying on her work to ‘fill in the blanks’ (given the amount of research she obviously put into her books), than in actually citing some genealogical sources that I have come across in my own research (I’m sure we all run into sources like that). To anyone who has not yet read her work, I recommend it very highly, especially if you would like to get a feel for what life was like 800 years ago.”
That sums it up nicely! Now, on to the present:
Following the questions posed by Beth, Suzanne and Sandy in particular, I set about researching the identity of Joanna’s mother (referred to hereafter, for ease of reference as ‘Clemence’ not ‘Clementia’) through an affair with the to-be-king John. This task proved to be much more complex than I would have thought possible! After running up many blind alleys, mostly through trying to reconcile the chronology of one with the other, I have settled on what follows. I do not claim that what I have written is definitive in any shape or form, and the truth is that we will probably never be sure of her identity.
To start, the evidence is incontrovertible that John had TWO daughters named Joan (Joanna), as follows:
(a) The illegitimate Joanna, daughter of “Clemence,” was unquestionably born out of wedlock –– as is proved by Honorius III’s decree declaring her legitimate in April 1226, though without prejudice to the king or realm of England (i.e., giving her no claim to that throne). The decree, which has been transcribed from the original, unpublished Register of Honorius III (Reg. Vat. 13, fol. 122 ), states inter alia that “Johannes Rex anglie solutus te genuerit de soluta,” which, I’m told, translates as “King John of England, when unmarried, fathered you by an unmarried woman.”
This means Joanna can have been born no later than 1189 when John married Isabella of Gloucester. Her mother, “Clemence” was probably French or Norman, since evidence from the patent rolls of John’s reign shows that Joan was brought from Normandy to England in December 1203, to prepare for marriage to Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (see below). Joanna died in Feb 1237.
(b) John’s legitimate daughter Joan, by Isabella of Angouleme (married to John in 1200 at age 12!), was born at Gloucester on 22 July 1210 (see the Tewkesbury Annals in the Rolls Series, vol. 36.i, p. 59; the Worcester Annals, ibid., vol. 36.iv, p. 399; and the Rotuli Litterarum Patencium for John’s Reign, pp. 124, 143). This is the Joan who subsequently married Alexander II of Scotland and she died in 1238, some months after Joanna (this may account for some of the confusion evident between the two women). She left no issue by Alexander II.
Now, if we consider the whereabouts of John during the period when Joanna would have been conceived, we find the following:
John was born in December 1167. He was at most 21 and maybe younger than that when his daughter Joanna was born. She may well have been the eldest of all the children he fathered by his various mistresses.
1187 June - John in France when Chateauroux was being besieged
1187 June 23 - truce
1188 Jan. 30 - Henry returns to England, possibly with John in tow
1188 Summer - Henry sends John back to Normandy, crosses from
Shoreham to Dieppe; Henry then goes to France, John remaining in Normandy1189 June 12 - John at Le Mans when disarmed by Henry's order, and then
John fled or was led away for safety
1189 July 6 - Henry I dies in France
1189 Aug. 12 - Richard brings John back to England with him
1189 Aug. 29 - John married to Isabelle of Gloucester at Marlebridge
1189 Sep. 3 - Richard crowned at Westminster Abbey
1189 Oct. - Richard sends John into Wales to subdue the rebellious Welsh
1190 Feb. - John summoned to Normandy and forced on oath
not to set foot into England for three years
1190 June - Richard goes on crusade [John breaks his oath]
For our purposes, it is thought that the most important period, and the most
likely time for Joanna to have been conceived, is the 1187-9 period.
1187 - John spends virtually the entire year in France
1188 - John might have returned to England in January, but by
summer is sent back to France, where he appears to have
remained
1189 - John is apparently in France January - August, returning to England in August in preparation for his marriage on 29 Aug.
If John made no more unrecorded returns to England, it would appear that he spent about 80% of his time from January 1187 until his marriage, in France. He was at some point given the County of Mortain, in Normandy (before Richard's coronation).
The above information, given the period and also the fact that Joanna was brought to England from France in 1203 for her marriage to Llywelyn, lends credence to the idea that Joanna and her mother were of French/Norman origin.
Given also John’s well-known philandering during this period, there appears to be many candidates for the role of mother of Joanna!
The genealogists have identified at least six possible candidates:
- Clemence de Dauntsey
- Clemence le Boteler
- Clemence Pinel
- Clemence de Fougers
- Constance Duchess of Brittany
- Agatha de Ferrers
Taking the story of each of these ladies in turn, I found the following:
1 Clemence de Dauntsey
My previous post gave the information that Paget showed that it was Clemence de Dauntsey, who married Nicholas de Verdun. I believed that this was the Nicholas and Clementia to whom Henry 111 granted the custody of Susanna (as a hostage) in 1228. After another long search however, I could find no trace of a Clemence de Dauntsey in the records. I did find however, the opinion of one genealogist who clearly stated it as…’ I think that we (the genealogists) have established that there was no such person as Clemence de Dauntsey. That identification of the wife of Nicholas de Verdun was a blunder by Paget!’
I am happy to accept that conclusion, as further investigation of the records of the next Clemence proved more fruitful.
2 Clemence le Boteler
Clemence le Boteler was born about 1175 in Steeple Lavington, Wiltshire. Her father was Philip le Boteler (born circa 1150).
Clemence le Boteler married Nicholas de Verdun in 1202 (his second wife after his marriage to Joan Fitz Piers. Note, this marriage is not proven) at Alton, Staffordshire and they had one child, Rohese de Verdun who was born in 1203 or 1205 (died. Feb 1247).
If, indeed, Joanna was the result of a liaison between John and Clemence le Boteler (who would have been aged around 14-15 at the time), it would have been very difficult for the Le Boteler family to find a suitable husband for Clemence. Indeed some ten years pass before a marriage is arranged (by John and his family?) with a trustworthy English nobleman and property holder, Nicholas de Verdun. Leaving aside for the moment the possibility that Nicholas had fallen in love with the 27 year old Clemence and wanted to marry her, it would have been necessary for John to provide Clemence with some property of her own so that she became a more attractive prize for her husband to be.
The records now show a minor player, Philip Boteler, with seemingly little property, who comes into considerable property that is passed on through his daughter, Clemence. The CLR, 1245-51, p111 shows that although the properties of Wilsford and Stoke Farthing in Wiltshire first appear in de Verdun hands during their daughter Rohese's tenure of the family estates, they first came to the family as a result of Nicholas de Verdun's marriage to Clemence le Boteler. This is revealed in a plea of 1243 in which Rohese claimed to hold Stoke Farthing as the heir of Philip Boteler, the father of the said Clemence. [CRR, vol. 17, no 1462].
In 1228, it appears that this same Clemence and her husband Nicholas were chosen to receive custody of Joanna and Llywelyn's daughter Susanna (aged about 14?). The purpose for the placement (apart from housing a hostage), seems to be for the child to be brought up in a safe and secure environment with the opportunity for a better education. Of course, would this Clemence be the mother of Joanna, she would also be the grandmother of Susanna, though there is no reason to believe that the young Joanna knew, at this time, that there was a family relationship, if the truth were being kept from her. The custodial grant was by King Henry III, half-brother to Joanna and half-uncle to Susanna, yet the decree called Susanna, Henry's ‘niece’ and Joanna, Henry's ‘sister’.’
A question now poses itself. If Joanna was the daughter of Clemence le Boteler, from, apparently an English household, how do we explain what Joanna was doing in France when King John sent for her in 1203? One possible answer is that Clemence’s father, Philip le Boteler was French, rather than English. It was quite common at the time for people to hold properties on both sides of the Channel. This may also explain why he named his daughter ‘Clemence’, a name more common in French families than in English families during this period.
3 Clemence Pinel
The only publication where I have encountered a reference to Clemence Pinel – wife of Henry Pinel (apart from Charles Cawley in Wikipedia) is in Alison Weir’s ‘England’s Royal Families: The complete Genealogy (London, 1989).’ This publication is noted by one genealogist as ‘not very fully annotated.’ My own trawl through the genealogy forums found scant reference to the Pinel family, including Clemence’s husband Henry Pinel. Several entries suggest that Joanna was the daughter of Henry Pinel and his wife Clemence, but no sources, capable of being checked, are offered. I am therefore inclined to discount this lady from further investigation. I could be very wrong!!!!
4 Clemence de Fougers
Clemence de Fougers was the sister of Richard de Hommet, Constable of Normandy, and Geoffrey de Fougeres. Her father was William du Fougers. We have no date of birth (or death) of Clemence, but she was first married before 1200 (no date available) to Alan de Dinan, and was prominent enough to marry in October 1200, as her next husband, Ranulph de Blundeville, Earl of Chester and Vicomte d'Avranches, recently divorced (marriage annulled?) from Constance of Brittany.
In 1189, aged seventeen, Ranulph had been married to Constance of Brittany the widow of Henry 11’s son Geoffrey, and the mother of Arthur of Brittany with whom King John contested the succession. Henry did not trust the Countess and wanted her married to a magnate he could trust. The marriage gave Ranulph control of the earldom of Richmond and the duchy of Brittany, but it was not a success (see subject 6. below). The couple had no issue and they separated. It was rumoured that Earl Ranulph divorced Constance for having had an affair with King John!
Given that Clemence de Fougers was daughter and sister of Constables of Normandy, It is thought likely that John, Count of Mortain, in Normandy, knew of her [and perhaps *knew* her, prior to her marriage to Ranulph]. A close connection to John might explain what would seem a very advantageous second marriage for Clemence to Ranulph.
Ranulph, 6th Earl of Chester however, was a powerful baron and it beggars belief, at least for me, that he would have accepted a marriage to a woman who had had a known affair and a subsequent child by John, Count of Mortain some ten years previously. Particularly given the rumours surrounding a possible affair between John and his first wife Constance!
Whether John did have an affair (and a child) with this ‘Clemence’, for whom he arranged an advantageous marriage, who can know?? It all seems a bit tenuous to me!
5 Constance, Duchess of Brittany
Constance was born on the 12th June 1161 in Brittany and was married to (1) Geoffrey Plantagenet in 1181. Geoffrey was killed in a riding accident in 1186 and Constance married (2) Ranulph de Blundeville, 4th Earl of Chester, on 3rd February 1188, in a marriage arranged by King Henry 11. This marriage deteriorated and Ranulph imprisoned Constance in 1196. Rebellions were sparked across Brittany on her behalf and Ranulph released her in 1198. Back in Brittany, Constance had her marriage annulled and later in 1198, she took Guy de Tours as her ‘second’ husband.
Constance died aged 40, (possibly of leprosy, possibly after giving birth to twin girls) on 5th September 1201 at Nantes
The theory that Constance had an affair with John after the death of Geoffrey and before John’s marriage to Isabella of Gloucester in 1189, and that she was mother to Joanna is very contentious and has provoked much discussion within genealogical circles.
One comment from a genealogist states that ‘the journal ‘The Plantagenet Connection’ has published an ahnentafel of Elizabeth Plantagenet, wife of Henry V11, which gives Joanna’s mother’s name as Constance (perhaps misnamed Clemence?), Duchess of Brittany. This is the Constance who was John’s sister-in-law! Considering the well-known animosity between John and Constance and her own attempts to press her son Arthur’s interests as far as the throne of England was concerned (and we all know how disastrously that turned out!), I really find the proposed relationship a little hard to swallow. The Constance that history portrays does not strike me as on whom John could easily coerce into bed.’
Again on the subject of Constance, John Parsons, an eminent historian/genealogist writes:
‘A theory that would identify Joanna’s mother as Constance fails to take into account a very critical point in canon law. By merely having sex with John, let alone bearing him a child, Constance would have established a first-degree relationship of affinity with all of John’s siblings –– including John’s brother Geoffrey. Even though this was not a consanguineous relationship but one of affinity, any first-degree relationship would have rendered matrimony between Constance and any of John’s brothers impossible without a dispensation –– which given the party’s rank would have had to come from the pope himself. That would mean that some trace of the matter must surely have come down to us, whether it involved the request for it, the deliberations, or the actual dispensation itself. As far as I am aware, nothing of the kind exists.’
My own opinion for what it’s worth, is that had Constance been the mother of Joanna she would surely have brought her up in her household and her name would be as well known as Constance’s other children by Geoffrey (Eleanor, Fair Maid of Brittany, Matilda/Maud of Brittany and Arthur).
6 Agatha de Ferrers
Agatha was born about 1168 in Chartley Castle, Staffordshire. It is well known that she was a mistress of John and several family trees give her, though unmarried, as the mother of Joanna. Most genealogists however are of the opinion that it is only supposition that she is Joanna’s mother as no proof or records exist to demonstrate this.
One source frequently given is Sir William Dugdale, in the Baronage of England (1675-6). He states his source to be Dr David Howell’s ‘History of Wales’ (1584). Powell’s work is an enlarged edition of H Lloyd’s translation of ‘The Historie of Cambria’ by the 12th century Saint Caradoc of Llancarfan. Another source, ‘Magna Carta Barons’ by Charles Browning, copyright 1969 also names Agatha de Ferrers, daughter of Robert de Ferrers, fourth Earl of derby, as Joanna’s mother.
Although she cannot be entirely dismissed as a candidate for mother of Joanna, surely there would be some trace of her in a chronicle or other historic reference, if she had indeed been the mother of the wife of the Prince of North Wales.
I can find no record of Agatha having ever married and it is possible that she and John had a long standing relationship. The date of her death is unknown.
Conclusion
So! Who is it to be? As previously stated, the only reference we have in the records to the name of Joanna’s mother is an entry in the Tewkesbury annals which pertains to Joanna’s mother as “Queen Clemencie!” It reads in part:
Obiit domina Johanna domina Wallia, uxor Lewelini filia Regis Johannis et regina Clemencie, iii. Kal. Aprilis.”
“(Died lady Joanna, lady of Wales, wife of Llywelyn, daughter of King John and Queen Clementia, 3 Kal. April.”
Reference: Henry Richard Luard, Annales Monastici, 1 (1864): 101.
In this case the monk was evidently indulging in medieval legalism. Before her death, Joanna had been legitimised by the Pope. On the basis of that legitimisation, the Tewksbury monk evidently took it upon himself to elevate Joanna’s mother to the status of Queen, as if her mother had been King John’s wife! It is a fact however, that King John and Clemence were never married. By referring to Joanna’s mother as “Queen” Clementia, the monk who recorded Joanna’s death appeared to be showing his extreme respect for Joanna, but not attempting to alter the true facts.
Some Latinists have queried the meaning of this entry in the records. One has noted that ‘the use of the word ‘regina’ here could be an early example of the use of the word ‘queen’ (nowadays spelt ‘quean’) to indicate a woman of low degree, a loose woman, however you choose to render it most politely. This might have been an appropriate title for a mistress.’ Hmmmmm!
We will almost certainly never know for sure who was Joanna’s mother. My own feelings, following my research of the records and the genealogical tables, lean towards accepting that Joanna’s mother was named Clemence as written by the Tewksbury monk and, from the evidence available that Joanna’s daughter Susanna was handed over to the care of Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clemence by Henry 111, that Clemence de Verdun (nee. Boteler) was Joanna’s mother.
I hope that Susanna was happy in the house of her maternal grandmother Clemence!
Well. What do you think??
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concerning the notation of Gruffudd as illegitimate in the historical record cited by you, there is a simple explanation! This was to delineate Gruffudd’s status in relation to Llewellyn’s legitimate son Davydd, who according SKP was the youngest, and, according to Welsh law wouldn’t have been Llewellyn’s sole heir. But according to English law and The Church, Davydd was the heir because he was born to Joanna and Llewellyn during their marriage! So Gruffudd’s status had to be clearly stated to allow the English (and others) to have an excuse to eliminate him as a claimant to Llewellyn’s honors!
Gayle
I think I covered this point in my previous paper on the children of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and Joanna.
When Llywelyn ab Iorwerth came to power in Gwynedd, he brought, along with the resuscitation of the patrimonial territory, the restoration of the royal inheritance of the dynasty he hoped to form and its embodiment in the idea of a ‘principality’ (of the whole of Wales).
To do this meant an end to the Welsh law, for the first time in the history of the lineage, by Llywelyn adopting the principle that the inheritance should not be divided on the death of the ruler. He knew that the problems of internal fighting in Wales that this had caused in the past had allowed the English to ‘divide and rule.’ It is clear that Llywelyn was intent on installing a dynastic order in Wales and a marriage to the daughter of the English king would enhance that position.
King John made the subject of the inheritance only passing to the first born male child of their union, a condition of accepting the marriage of Joanna to Llywelyn:
“There were finally two crucially important provisions concerning Llywelyn’s son Gruffudd. He was given to the king’s custody and placed entirely at his will. Llywelyn agreed that if he were to have no heir by Joan his wife he would cede all his lands to the king, both those which he released by the terms of his charter and those which he retained, except for whatever the king might decide to give to Gruffudd. The son, a bastard by a Welsh woman named Tangwystl, would have nothing as of right ….”
When Dafydd ap Llywelyn (Joanna and Llywelyn’s legitimate son), having imprisoned his half-brother Gruffudd, had to submit to the English king in August 1241, he was forced to hand over Gruffudd to the king. Dafydd had then to pledge, in turn, that if he were ever to rebel against the king and, crucially ‘if he were to die without heir to his body by his wife, his patrimony would cede to the king.’ The same principle of ‘escheat’ that had been imposed on Llywelyn ab Iorwerth by King John in 1211.
Dafydd and his wife Isabel de Braose had no male heir and so when, upon Dafydd’s death, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (son of the illegitimate Gruffudd and Senena), seized power, the English used this illegitimacy to refuse to accept Llywelyn ap Gruffudd as Prince of Wales until forced to do so by Llywelyn’s diplomatic efforts and by force of arms.
Hi, Sharon,
Thanks for posting my second paper and thanks for not taking issue with me!! As you say, genealogical research is a minefield which will send you screaming for the aspirin as you come up against so much conflicting information on the same people. I think that when reading papers like mine, it is a question of, ‘don’t shoot the messenger!’
Taking the points you made in turn, I’ll address the subject of Joanna’s birth date first and then write another comment on Constance of Brittany.
You say that, although we don’t know her exact date of birth, your determination (of 1191) was based on….’the birth of her son Dafydd, whom we know was born in 1207 and her affair with William de Braose, for we know his age.’
Dafydd’s birth date:
I’m not sure from what source you established this as 1207.
Most genealogists and the history books of this period make reference to the charter Llywelyn was forced by King John into signing in 1211 –
– “… Llywelyn agreed that if he were to have no heir by Joanna his wife he would cede all his lands to the king, both those which he released by the terms of his charter and those which he retained, except for whatever the king might decide to give to Gruffudd. The son, a bastard by a Welsh woman named Tangwystl, would have nothing as of right ….”
Some argue that the wording of this charter makes it clear that Joanna’s son Dafydd had not yet been born in 1211. Several have the date of birth as between 1211 and 1215, the date on which Llywelyn was absolved from much of the severe terms imposed on him and when Gruffudd was handed over to the king. But, see Dafydd’s coming of age below.
Dafydd’s name is first mentioned in the records in May 1220, when, at a meeting at Shrewsbury with the justiciar, Hubert de Burgh, Archbishop Stephen Langton, and the papal legate, royal approval was given to Llywelyn’s decision that he should be succeeded by Dafydd rather than by Gruffudd. Two years later Llywelyn secured papal approval for an ordinance declaring his wish to set aside the custom of his country by which, he said, in words with a clear reference to Galatians 4: 30, ‘the son of the handmaiden should be heir with the son of a freewoman and illegitimate sons possess the inheritance like the legitimate’ (CEPR letters, 1.87). He provided that Dafydd, his son with his wedded wife, should succeed him by hereditary right. (Oxford DNB)
As mentioned previously, Dafydd (accompanied by Gwladus Ddu) did homage to the king in 1229, possibly upon his coming of age, as was common at the time, at fourteen years. Dafydd married Isabel de Braose between 1230 and 1232 (when he and she were both 15-17).
So, based on the above and Joanna’s birth date being either 1189 or 1191, she would have been either 24 at least and 26 at most at Dafydd’s birth in 1215.
Joanna’s ‘affair’ with William de Braose
The date of birth of William (V) de Braose – Lord of Abergavenny, is variously given as 1197 and 1204.
His father Reginald de Braose (married to Gwladus Ddu) dies in 1228, when William would have been 31 or 24. However, the records show that William was handed the Sussex lands of Bramber and Knapp in August 1218 leading most genealogists to believe that this was the date of his coming of age at 14 (therefore dob. 1204).
He married Eva de Marshall (b.1203), before 1221 when they were both 17-18 yrs old. Therefore, William was at least 26 and at most 33 when, in 1230, he had his ‘improbable’ affair with Joanna, when she was either 46 or 48 yrs old! Not impossible of course, given her renowned beauty!
My own conclusion that Joanna was born in 1189 is based on the decree by Pope Honorius in April 1226, which I mentioned in the paper: ‘King John of England, when unmarried, fathered you by an unmarried woman.’ John married Isabella of Gloucester in 1189, and that means that, if the decree was accurate, Joanna was born before that.
Sharon, we’ll never know for sure, so we’ll have to agree to disagree!
Hi, Ken,
Could you give us the source for that first quote in this reply? Thanks!
There are a couple of ways in which Llewellyn would not have an heir by his wife: death or just no sons born of the marriage! So, another interpretation of the charter of 1211 in which Llewellyn agrees that if he should die without a legitimate heir, his lands in Wales would devolve to the English King is that in 1211, if Davydd was born in 1207, he was only 4 years old! The mortality rate was very high for young children in the MA, so it is possible that King John was thinking that if Davydd died, he could get Wales! by excluding any illegitimate sons of Llewellyn by his concubines. Just another theory.
Constance of Brittany and Geoffrey wed in 1181. Geoffrey died in 1186. Joanna was born 1189/1191? I am puzzled by the citation of John Parson’s “any first-degree relationship [between John and Constance] would have rendered matrimony between Constance and any of John’s brothers impossible without a dispensation” Contance and Geoffrey’s marriage and Geoffrey’s death took place BEFORE Joanna’s birth and any possible sexual liason of whatever type between John and Constance. One possible reason for the Church to check into G & C marriage after it had ended with Geoffrey’s death would have been to de-legitimize Arthur and Eleanor, but that doesn’t appear to have happened! I believe this argument against C & J having a sexual encounter is very flimsy. But I also believe that Constance would NEVER have willingly been with John. Such a story might make a good bodice-ripper, if one could find a publisher!
Hi, Sharon,
The quote: “There were finally two crucially important provisions concerning Llywelyn’s son Gruffydd. He was given to the king’s custody and placed entirely at his will. Llywelyn agreed that if he were to have no heir by Joan his wife he would cede all his lands to the king, both those which he released by the terms of his charter and those which he retained, except for whatever the king might decide to give to Gruffydd. The son, a bastard by a Welsh woman named Tangwystl, would have nothing as of right. Llywelyn, who had married four years earlier but was still without a legitimate heir, was confronted with the dire prospect that his dominion would escheat to the king at his death. The import of the fact was that in 1241 the principle of escheat was forced upon Dafydd ap Llywelyn, the eventual heir to Gwynedd, has often been emphasized. But this new evidence establishes that it had been imposed upon Llywelyn ap Iorwerth thirty years earlier.”
Comes from: J. Beverley Smith, ‘Magna Carta and the Charters of the Welsh Princes,’ The English Historical Review, Vol. 99, No. 391, Apr., 1984, pp. 355-6
The same quotation is referred to by Louise Wilkinson in her paper ‘Joan, Wife of Llywelyn the Great’ in Thirteenth Century England X: Proceedings of the Durham Conference 2003. If you google this paper and then ‘google books’, you will find extracts of the paper on line. Unfortunately, her interesting comment that “Dafydd was presumably born after Llywelyn’s submission to John in 1211, as no mention of him was …..” is incomplete as pages 87-88 are omitted from the Google books extract!!!!
Maybe I’ll have to buy the book!
Ken, thanks so much for your excellent work. What a joy our language is! It seems quite plausible to me that “regina” (notably with a lower case) could have meant something other than our current usage of the word “queen”. If that is the case, then it would seem to me that Clemence le Boteler is the more likely mother given Clemence de Fougers’ high rank. The other candidates do seem rather unlikely.
Hi Sharon,
I just finished The Reckoning and thoroughly enjoyed the trilogy. It was my first venture into the Wales/English conflict and it was enlightening. My next read will be The Sunne in Splendor and I’m anxiously looking forward to it. Keep up the good work. Entertaining, and accurate historical novels are so rare. You are truly a breath of “fresh history.”
Skip
Thanks, Skip. One of the things I enjoyed about writing my Welsh trilogy is that I wasn’t following a well-traveled road. Most of my readers were not that familiar with Welsh history, so I could surprise them.
Ken: Thanks so much for sharing your research with us. I don’t know if you had access to Douglas Richardson’s Plantagnet Ancestry or not, since it was written as a reference for Americans with colonial ancestors of Plantagenet descent. He gives as one of his proofs that Joanna was the mother of Gwladus Ddu the fact that Llewelyn gave the properties of Knighton and Norton castles in Shropshire to Ralph Mortimer when he and Gwladus were married. These properties were part of Joanna’s maritagium from her father King John. It would have been illegal for Llewelyn to give Joanna’s property to an illegitimate daughter (or one who was not a child of Joanna). The properties of Norton and Knighton remained in the Mortimer family thereafter. The quote was, “That if the King give Land to a man with a woman of his kindred in frank marriage, and the woman dyeth without issue, the Man in the Kings case shall not hold it for his life, because the woman was the cause of the gift.” In other words, the properties would have reverted back to the crown before they would have been given to a child who was not Joanna’s.
Hi, Marilyn,
I did not have access to the Plantaganet Ancestry by Doug Richardson, but did have access to the many discussions involving him and his theories with other genealogists (some for him, but many also against). Thank you for the quotation which I had not seen before.
I think, as I stated in my previous paper, that what swings it for me(Joanna being the mother of Gwladus), is the transfer of the properties you mention to Ralph de Mortimer upon his marriage to Gwladus and the fact that they named two of their children ‘John’ and ‘Joan.’ I cannot imagine that if Gwladus had been the daughter of Tangwystyl, she would have named her children thus.
In spite of the arguments between the eminent genealogists I mention above, there was a general consensus that Gwladus Ddu can be reasonably identified as the daughter of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth by Joanna, daughter (subsequently legitimised) of John, King of England.
Let me take this opportunity to agree with Sharon (in a message to me) that Llywelyn’s daughter Gwenllian was by Tangwystyl and not Joanna, thereby being blood sister to Gruffudd. I base this partly on a contemporary record found in ‘Royal and Other Historical letters Illustrative of the reign of Henry 111,’ edited by Rev. Walter W. Shirley, vol 1. On pages 500-503 is the transcript of an original letter dated 05 Aug. 1224 from William Marshall, Earl of Pembroke, to King Henry 111. In this letter, Marshall discusses his siege of the castles of Crum, Kilmore and O’Realy. He lists the people he found in the castle O’Realy when it surrendered, they included:
“…uxor Wilelmi de Lascy, filia Leulini, soror Griffini de patre et matre, et uxor Thomae Blund fratis dicti Willelmi, et mater dictorum Willelmi et Thomae ….”
I’m told that this means that we have here Gwenllian, daughter of Prince llywelyn, who appears to be called ‘sister of Gruffudd.’ As we know Gruffudd to be the illegitimate son of Llywelyn, it is taken that ‘de patre et matre’ means that Gwenllian and Gruffudd were full blood sister and brother. Had Gwenllian been Joanna’s daughter and therefore King Henry’s niece, surely Marshall would have commented on that fact?
This failure of Marshall to identify William de Lacy’s wife as the king’s niece, is taken as near certain proof that Gwenllian was not the daughter of the king’s sister Joanna.
Ken: Thanks for that reference to Gwenllian. I am certainly not a professional genealogist, but I do a lot of research on my own lines. I think some of the “pros” are really jealous and resentful of each other (at least it seems that way in some of the things they post). There are things that we are just not going to know with certainty about people in the MA because they did not keep vital records like we do today, so genealogists and historians have to use their best judgment in sorting things out. In fact, vital records are a fairly “new” concept – many states here in the US did not keep records of births and deaths until the early 1900’s. I belong to several lineage societies where I have had to prove eleven or twelve generations, and believe me it is not easy. So I really appreciate the difficulty of researching MA ancestors. (And the sad thing is that the records that are available for the MA are of the royalty and nobility – nothing whatsoever for the common people).
Понравился пост. Еле отправил сообщение-столько псал в начале и не сохранилось. Ну да ладно. Удачи, админ в развитии блога.
,..] http://www.sharonkaypenman.com is another nice source on this issue,..]
Хороший блог! Тоже понравился.
Спасибо Вам за ваш сайт. Много интересного здесь нашёл для себя 🙂
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“July 6 1189, dies in France” should this be Henry I? maybe Henry II.
Llywelyn Fawr and Joanna one of my favourite love stories
Hi guys,
I know this might be a bit off topic but seeing that a bunch of you own websites, where would the best place be to host. Someone recommended I use Blue Host for $6.95 a month which seems like a great deal. Anyone here on http://www.sharonkaypenman.com using them?
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Hi Sharon,
I have just written a novel based on the life and subsequent tragic death of Matilda de Braose d.1210 at the hands of King John. As yet my offering is unpublished because I find the process of finding a publisher/editor quite daunting. However dispite this I have started (October last year) another book with the intention of covering Gruffydd and Senena’s story, but somehow I got more and more pulled into Llewelyn and Joanna’s story (Tangwystl seems to want her say as well as she becomes a ghostly entity!) Anyway I was absolutely thrilled to find your blog as it is so well researched and it irons out some of the many niggling issues that are thrown up during my own research – or at least it makes me choose my version of events more carefully. I particularly found Ken’s papers fascinating. Keep up the good work Ken!
Super great read. Truely.
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Hi Sharon,
I realize this is an older thread, but as I’ve just started researching my family history again, I ran across this while surfing for some answers.
I’m a bit confused that you stated Clemence Le Boteler married Nicholas de Verdun after Joan Fitzpiers death, because I have lines through both Rohese and Aline de Verdun, both born to Joan, at least in my tracings. (My family tends to cross-marry a lot which is a mixed blessing!)
I also want to say that I love your books, I’ve read most of them, I think 🙂
And Julie Gates, I do hope you find a publisher, because I descend from those lines also!
At least that is what it seems, my husband laughs at me because I try to disprove royal connections more than prove them 🙂
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I tend not to leave a response, but after reading some of the comments here Sharon Kay Penman » Blog Archive » The Mother of Joanna of Wales, wife of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. I actually do have a few questions for you if it’s allright. Is it only me or does it look like a few of these responses appear like they are coming from brain dead folks? 😛 And, if you are posting on other social sites, I’d like to keep up with anything new you have to post. Would you make a list of the complete urls of all your social sites like your linkedin profile, Facebook page or twitter feed?
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