I am going to begin with a confession—I’d have been horrified if you had picked High Drama over Historical Accuracy. Ideally, a book should be able to provide both. But I apply a rather stringent standard, and even a well-written book can be ruined for me if the research is sloppy. I don’t mean occasional errors, which are inevitable, but fundamental misconceptions about the medieval world, what I think of as “The Plantagenets in Pasadena” syndrome, where highborn young women expect to marry for love and class differences are a minor inconvenience and religion is rarely if ever mentioned.
Of course much of what historical novelists do is “fill in the blanks,” for we have no choice. Medieval chroniclers were notably indifferent to the needs of modern novelists, rarely mentioning such dramatic essentials as birth dates or causes of death. So we novelists must often improvise, sometimes with unintended consequences. I received a letter once from a woman who’d felt so passionate about Here Be Dragons that she made a pilgrimage to Chester Cathedral, where Joanna and Llewelyn had wed. She was dismayed to find no reference whatsoever to this important historical event and she took the cathedral officials to task for their negligence. I then had to tell her that the negligent parties were the thirteenth century chroniclers who hadn’t bothered to mention where the marriage took place. I’d chosen Chester as a logical site because of its proximity to Wales; I was able to reassure her, though, that Llewelyn ap Gruffydd and Ellen de Montfort actually were wed in Worcester Cathedral.
On a related subject, I feel comfortable involving characters in historical events if their participation seems logical and if they aren’t known to have been elsewhere at the time. For example, there is no evidence that Henry’s illegitimate son Geoff (later Archbishop of York) took part in the battle at Fornham. But we know he was very active on Henry’s behalf in the military campaigns against English rebels, and we don’t know where he was in October of 1173, so why not Fornham?
I found the discussion about Genealogy Charts vs. Cast of Characters quite interesting. Depending upon the books, I can see a need for both. When I read Brian Wainwright’s novel about Constance of York, Within the Fetterlock, I’d have been lost if he hadn’t provided a Cast of Characters, for I was not very familiar with the reign of Henry IV. The ideal solution would be to provide both for the reader. But as for bibliographies, Kristen, that is not feasible. It is rarely if ever done in historical novels and I’d expect most publishers to be resistant to it. So would I, to be candid. There is no way I could include all of my research sources; in addition to books, I rely upon academic journal articles to a great extent. Author websites provide the ideal solution, though. In my Research Recommendations section, I can highlight books that I think my readers will find interesting, and I have the liberty of adding to the list from time to time. I ought to mention here that I am not always in total agreement with the authors of the books I recommend. Occasionally the books are outdated or the writers draw conclusions I do not agree with; Marion Meade’s biography of Eleanor is an example, as is John Julius Norwich’s Kingdom in the Sun. But if books make my list, that does mean that I think the research is generally reliable and the writing itself is graceful.
Beth, I loved your comment about historical research. You are so right! Research has its own ebb and flow, and surprises can be washed up on shore once the tide goes out. I have been writing fiction for more than twenty-five years, so it is inevitable that some of my initial research has been contradicted by subsequent discoveries. Eleanor’s age is a perfect example. For many years, 1122 was her accepted birth date, but with the publication of Eleanor of Aquitaine, Lord and Lady, that changed, and there seems to be a consensus in favor of Andrew Lewis’s new date of 1124. Here Be Dragons was published in 1185, and at that time the belief in Richard’s homosexuality was in the ascendancy. Twenty-some years later that subject engenders a great deal more controversy, and writers on either side of the argument feel obligated to mention the dispute, which is surely a good thing.
Research is particularly fluid in the study of genealogy. When I wrote Dragons, I was unable to find any references to the birth date of John’s illegitimate brother, William Longsword, and his mother was unknown. Today it is generally accepted that his mother was Ida de Tosny, daughter of the Lord of Conches, later the wife of Roger Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and it seems likely that Will was born c. 1177. Readers interested in finding out more about Ida and Roger Bigod are in luck, as Elizabeth Chadwick has written a novel about them titled The Time of Singing, which has just come out in paperback in the U. K. Moving on to Joanna, I relied upon Peter Bartram’s massive genealogical work of forty years in determining that only Elen was Joanna’s biological daughter. In the intervening years, I have seen claims that Gladwys and possibly others were Joanna’s, too. But to show you how complicated the issue is, I would cite two articles from The Genealogist. One argues that all the mothers of Llewelyn’s daughters must be shown as “unknown,” including Elen. A subsequent article in The Genealogist unearthed a letter from Henry III dated June 22, 1237, in which he refers to the newly widowed Elen as his niece, which certainly seems to prove that Elen was Joanna’s biological daughter. In the first article, I was following his arguments with interest until I came upon his statement that Elen had only two daughters, Joanna and Hawise, by her second marriage to Robert de Quincy. Now I happen to know from my own admittedly unprofessional research that Elen and Robert also had a daughter named Anne, having found this information in the Calendar of Inquisitions, a fascinating document which gave me the ages of the daughters and the year in which Elen died. So I can only repeat that we all make mistakes and we never know when a new treasure might be revealed by those receding waves.
Speaking of mistakes, I made one in my last blog, telling you that Eleanor made four trips across the Alps. Actually it was three; she and Louis took the overland route through Germany on their way to the Holy Land.
Before I respond to your questions, I’d like to ask for your help. A friend of mine asked if I could recommend any novels about Robin Hood. I’ve never done any Robin Hood reading, but I told him that I’m sure some of my readers will have books to suggest. So….any Robin Hood novels out there that Jerry would enjoy?
Okay, question time. Monica, I am sorry to say that I don’t have any U.K. trips planned in the immediate future. I was fortunate enough to live in York and Benllech, Gwynedd briefly, and I was accustomed to spending at least a month on your side of the Atlantic every year, dividing my time between England and Wales. But that changed when my mother died and my dad came to live with me; he had serious health problems and I no longer felt free to spend so much time away from home. By the time he died, I’d followed the Angevins to France and that had become the focal point of my research; the last time I was in England for a research trip, it was to refresh my memories of Canterbury Cathedral in preparation for Henry’s penance scene.
Ken, I hope you keep us up to date as Othon’s book progresses. As an ex-archer, have you read Bernard Cornwell’s Agincourt? If so, what did you think of it? I was fascinated by his contention that so much of archery is mental. I hope you have better luck with all those recycled names than I did; with so many Richards and Edwards and even Elizabeths in Sunne, I became inordinately attached to Francis Lovell simply because he was the only one in the whole blessed book! You said you were interested in the last years of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. The Osprey Campaign series has a volume by David Nicolle called Acre 1291, Bloody Sunset of the Crusader States, and Christopher Tyerman’s God’s War, A New History of the Crusades, has a section on the fall of Acre. You’re going to like my Research Recommendations page once I start to add all my crusader books!
Kristen, I’m sorry you missed my November visit to the Poisoned Pen, but it is very likely I will be back. My last visit was for the publication of Devil’s Brood, but I’ve often visited even when I didn’t have a book coming out, usually when Barbara Peters has set up a forum with other writers. I wish I were coming to the West Coast, too, Mimi. I used to make fairly regular stops in California, Portland, and Seattle, but publishers are cutting back drastically on book tours, so it is hard to say what the future holds for them. Jenny, my book tour for late July, early August is up in the Press Room of my website; I’ll be at Borders in Baileys Crossroads on July 29th at 7:30 PM; I hope you can be there. I love to meet readers, and our blog interaction has added a certain intimacy, so I feel as if I know the “regulars” already. Kelly, what is your daughter’s name? I hope she can come, too.
Helen, I would consider a film deal, but sad to say, Stephen Spielberg is not camping out on my front porch. Sunne is still optioned and the British production company is diligently seeking funding, no easy task in the current economy; there was a recent query about Dragons, but it is not likely to go very far. Gabriele, I’d warn you to keep a close eye on Arminius; he sounds quite capable of high-jacking your book right out from under your nose. And is the Dalriatan chief a real historical figure? He definitely sounds like a man who needs a book of his own!
Brenna, your question is a difficult one for me. I generally try not to be publicly critical of other writers, feeling a certain solidarity—we’re an endangered species, after all. I have reservations about Alison Weir’s biography of Eleanor, as I suspect many of you have guessed, for hers is not one of the books I’ve recommended. Regrettably, she does not always cite footnotes for the sources of her conclusions. Some years ago, she wrote a book, Britain’s Royal Families, The Complete Genealogy, in which she offered a bibliography, but not a single footnote, which made it impossible to judge the accuracy of her statements; for example, she lists seven illegitimate children for Richard III, three of them unnamed with questions marks, which was not particularly helpful for readers wanting to pursue this further. And I was troubled by some of the errors I found in her biography of Eleanor.
Just to cite a few examples: She says the King of Sicily, Tancred, was the nephew of William the Good, Joanna’s husband. He was not; he was William’s cousin. She says that the French King Philippe was so taken with Joanna that Richard immediately moved her to the mainland, “out of the French king’s reach,” since “he was a married man.” Well, no, he wasn’t. His queen had died giving birth to stillborn sons six months previously. And while Roger de Hoveden did indeed report that Philippe was smitten with Joanna, who was a beautiful, accomplished young woman, Richard moved her to the mainland because he feared for her safety—not from Philippe, but from the unfriendly citizens of Messina. Four days afterward, rioting broke out in Messina and Richard seized control of the city, “in less time than it took for a priest to chant Matins” according to one of the chroniclers accompanying him. On p. 271, Ms. Weir says that Richard met Tancred in March, 1191 and the two kings reached a “friendly agreement.” This is partially true. They did meet at Catania in March, 1191, at which time Richard gave Tancred a sword that he claimed to be Arthur’s Excalibur! But their “friendly agreement” had been struck five months earlier, in October of 1190, and this is well documented; we have the actual terms of the agreement and even a November letter from Richard in which he notifies the Pope of their accord.
I am not saying you should not read her biography of Eleanor, for she has obviously put a great deal of work into it; just proceed with caution. In fairness to Ms. Weir, I ought to say that she is not the only biographer who can be casual about footnotes. A recent biography by Frank McLynn, Richard and John: Kings at War, tells us that Eleanor had black hair and black eyes. Now this is rather startling since the details of her physical appearance have eluded us for more than eight centuries. But no footnote is cited for this remarkable revelation. I would have been fine with it had he said that Eleanor probably had dark coloring, but he presented it as cold, hard fact. And while historical novelists have to conjure up details like that, historians have neither that need nor that liberty.
Megan, I am in agreement with Elizabeth Chadwick and Ken; yours wins the Funniest Comment contest, hands-down! Paula, you made an interesting comment about medieval cooking. Should I add a section in my Research Recommendations about medieval food? I was thinking of recommending several books about medieval travel, so I guess it would make sense to expand the subject a bit. Opinions?
Well, I’ve done it again, written a blog entry that rivals Moby Dick in length. I always start out with such good intentions, too. So I’ll conclude now by saying that I fully agree with Elizabeth’s answer to your query, Carrie. The Plantagenets in particular can strain credibility, for the high drama and improbable turns and twists in their lives could have come straight from a Hollywood scriptwriter’s imagination. So like Elizabeth, I try to keep my books securely grounded in fact. And hardly a day goes by when I don’t give thanks for the Author’s Note. Now I am signing off until after the Historical Novel Society Convention.
June 3, 2009
PS Well, I’m back again, as I forgot to respond to a few questions. I asked St Martins Press when The Reckoning would be available in Kindle format, and was told it is in the pipeline, and it will depend upon how fast Amazon moves. Susan Kay’s Legacy will be issued in paperback format by Sourcebooks in the spring of 2010. Lastly, I found a remarkable website that I want to share. It is www.freerice.com, and is based upon a brilliant premise. When you visit the site, you are able to take a vocabulary quiz; each time you correctly identify a word, a rice donation is made for the world’s poor through the UN World Food Program. Do check it out, as this is a way to have fun while doing good, and it doesn’t get any better than that.
This is becoming the Blog Without End. I also forgot to mention that I am planning to add a section for my British readers. As soon as my Penguin editor sends me the book jackets, we are going to list all of my books published in the U. K. with a click-on feature to connect readers to British on-line bookshops. And I now have the publication date for the Penguin paperback edition of Devil’s Brood—August 6, 2009.
June 4, 2009
Sharon,
Please don’t shorten your blogs and responses! Blogs are not tweets and can be as long as they as you want! I love reading your perspective and hearing your “voice” when not tempered through a character. And the interaction of the commenters makes it almost a forum. It’s also a real treat to have another favorite author chime in! This is a free medium and I hope nobody will pressure you to shorten your thoughts and comments!!!!
“Here Be Dragons was published in 1185, and at that time the belief in Richard’s homosexuality was in the ascendancy.” Really? 1185?? Sharon, you might want to update that.
I noticed that too! It’s clear that, as we fans have possibly suspected, SKP is the reincarnation of E of A!!!!!!!
Great post Sharon. I’ll post a more considered view later!
Thanks, guys, for the laugh! Well, I bet we all suspected I really live in the 12th century. Not that I’ve have wanted to, though, for I like my creature comforts way too much. Thanks, too, Megan, for the encouragement. Teh truth is that if I sit down to write a postcard, it turns into a four page letter. I will try to keep future blogs a bit shorter, as it takes forever just to scroll down this own.
Sharon
Sharon,
I agree with Megan, please do not shorten your blogs. I find them extremely interesting and helpful! I spent hours the other day reading through your blogs and then researching the books you suggested! Thank you for your comments regarding Alison Weir’s book on Eleanor. I think I will read the books your recommend first before trying hers. Do you know that she wrote a book on the War of the Roses and the Princes in the Tower? After reading Sunne, I bought them but haven’t had a chance to review. Your thoughts?
I would appreciate any additional books you would recommend on Richard and Edward. I can’t wait to read your other books! They are on their way as we speak!
I think that adding a section on medieval food to the recommended reading list would be a wonderful idea. As a previous commenter has said, your descriptions of meals are quite mouthwatering!
And I agree with Megan and Brenna – please do not feel a need to shorten blog entries! Yours are so much more meaningful and substantive than many (like, oh, mine…), and there’s a veritable treasure in each post.
I’ve started reading books that you’ve recommended in previous posts (my husband is reading _Within the Fetterlock_ right now, and we both quite enjoyed Wainwright’s _Adventures of Alianore Audley_…) And I’ll start on Elizabeth Chadwick’s Will Marshal novels as soon as I finish _Devil’s Brood_….
Hm, as long as people are requesting recommendations, do you or any of your esteemed readers have any recommendations for a book on Cecily Neville, Duchess of York? I’ve read Eleanor Fairburn’s series about her, but I wonder if there are others.
Laughed so hard at 1185 when I read this earlier today! My little Henry looked most shocked at his randomly chuckling mummy. He even offered me a lego car to calm me down.
A film of any of your books, Sharon, would make my decade: though I firmly believe that I should have a say in the casting!!! I have cursed so many well-scripted films for their odd/awful casting choices. Obviously my opinion would curtail this trend! (I jest… sort of…!)
RE: consulting academic journals: my favourite thing about being a student is using the universtiy Athens account to download articles from academic journals. I think it might be becoming a slight obsession of mine. My netbook will soon flounder beneath a mountain of .pdfs.
Alas, I don’t believe I’ve ever read a book about Robin Hood, or not one that springs to mind as being recommendable in any case. Then again, I do love King John far more than I perhaps should… so Robin Hood tales are unlikely to be my friends.
Belinda, Anne Easter Smith is writing a novel about Cecily of York. Other than the Fairburn ones, I can’t think of any others that have been published.
Sharon, I do think bibliographies or “further reading” sections in historical novels can be helpful (though I agree that listing articles would be a bit much)! I have seen some recent novels that have had them.
Hi, I’m new! I love your books and they make my history teachers look like complete failures (they are, I don’t know who hired them or even gave them their licenses, but any one who can give an entire lesson on Louis XV[i.e. his advisers, wife, mistress, policies and accomplishments] and then say “But the book doesn’t say anything about how he was beheaded” should not be allowed in front of students!)!
I would also be over the moon if they made anything of yours into a movie, and why isn’t Stephen Speilberg camped out on your porch? He doesn’t know what he’s missing!
As for Robin Hood recommendations I would go with Howard Pyle’s THE MERRY ADVENTURES OF ROBBIN HOOD, but that’s just because it’s the classic (although there is no mention of the traditional Maid Marian story in it).
Hello Sharon (and fellow readers),
First of all, count me as another reader who loves the blogs the way they are! They are very informative, and I love being so “in touch” with a favorite author!
As much as I would love to see a movie made from any of your books, we should all be careful about what we wish for. Does anybody remember Gods and Generals? That is one of my favorite books of all time, but author Jeff Shaara was given no control over the screenplay, and thus the story was slaughtered. He has pretty much disassociated himself with the movie because the only similarity to his book was the name. Hollywood really messed up a great story, which we all know they are prone to do!
Beth, I have always had a bit of a soft spot for King John as well, but reading The Scarlet Lion by Elizabeth Chadwick has made me quite angry with him at times! I still don’t think he was bad, but he certainly had issues! And I have become such a huge fan of William Marshal that I don’t want anybody messing with him!
I agree with many of the above posts – do not shorten your blog entries – they are wonderful! As to the question on research recommendations – the more the better, in my opinion. I’m the kind of reader that likes to do research on the side to find out more, so having a guide is a godsend!
Also – if you were to cast Sunne for a movie- who would you pick as Ned? Young Richard? Cecily? Richard Neville? I could go on and on… I love to do this sort of thing – it’s interesting to do this with people who have a love of a book the way I do… and often we pick completely different actors for favorite parts – which is interesting because it underscores how differently people can interpret a book…so forgive me if it seems trivial….I just thought I would throw it out there – kind of like the acorn, onion query a few months back…
In agreement with most everyone else who has posted, I don’t think you should worry how long your posts are. I love going to the website and reading all the new posts. Real enjoyment for me to just get away for a bit.
Michele is thinking the same thing I am. Who would you cast for one of your books? And, I do have to agree with Jeremy. That movies can sometimes make a mockery of the book, but unfortunately not every bit of detail in the books can make it into a two-hour movie. Although I do wish some directors would stop taking liberties. I have lost so much interest in the Potter films because of this. So that said. Sharon maybe the only way I would want to see one of your books adapted into a movie is if you wrote the screenplay.
Jeremy – I’ve not read The Scarlet Lion, but though there are a few things about John’s reign that irritate me, my love stays strong. Hurrah!You’re a William Marshal fan, eh? Well, I suppose I can’t turn my nose up at that. I did a Medieval Archaeology course where my lecturer kept referring back to Chepstow Castle and Marshal’s improvements to it, it was really interesting.
Hi again Sharon and fellow devotees!
Othon is going quite well. He is 10 yrs old and has just witnessed the collapse of half of Mont Granier near Count Peter of Savoy’s chateau at Chambery in Savoy (present day Switzerland). Google ‘Mont Granier’ and you will see the spectacular result of this collapse in 1248.
I did read Bernard Cornwell’s ‘Azincourt’ and while it is a ‘rollocking’ adventure, I didn’t warm to his main character Nicholas Hook as much as I had to Thomas Hookton in his ‘Grail’ series.
Archery is very ‘mental’. Witness the Zen archers of Japan, who can group sets of arrows in the target with their eyes closed! Also, pulling a bow with 100-140 lb draw weights, would give you no possibility of taking dead aim as you do with modern bows – your arms would be shaking with the effort. The archer would simply ‘ visualise’ the target, draw and loose in one fluid motion, relying on the years passed in doing just that.
By the way, there is ongoing debate on whether, as far as the British Isles are concerned, the ‘English’ longbow was actually first developed and used to devastating effect, by Welsh archers (South East Wales in particular). Your William de Brose was hit by a Welsh arrow which passed through his chainmail, into his thigh, through the saddle and penetrated the horse he was riding!
King Edward 1 also recognised the excellence of the Welsh archers and used them in many of his military campaigns in the late 13th C.
Thanks for the links on the fall of the kingdom of Jerusalem. The books are being delivered by Amazon in a few days!!
I have to agree with Jeremy about a possible movie. It can be wonderful to contemplate & of course it would bring you greater recognition & maybe even $$. However, seeing what movies have done to numerous other books makes me cringe. Very seldom do the movies do justice to the books they’re based on & frequently bare little resemblance except for the title. They seem to have to OVERDO everything.
I can’t imagine that any of us want shorter blogs from you.
Count me in w/ those who think that a movie would be destined to fall short of expectations — when has a movie of a favorite book ever not done so? Maybe, so long as I’m dreaming, a BBC miniseries instead? 🙂
I, like Beth, also find myself drawn to John (despite having read The Scarlet Lion!), and even more so after reading Warren’s biography. Obviously he was a deeply flawed individual, but he’s also gotten the raw end of history’s stick. Sharon, I was surprised you didn’t mention in Dragons his failed scheme to rescue Chateau Gaillard — Warren made that out to sound quite dramatic! Actually, I’m often curious about how you choose which events to include in your books and which to omit — which get the full scene treatment, which get mentioned in passing in a letter, and which get omitted altogether. There are definitely incidents which sound to me like they would make for good dramatic scenes, but they’re omitted or just mentioned in passing. It’s been a long time since I’ve read Sunne, but I remember being surprised that the Warwick family’s flight to France, w/ Isabel near delivery on the boat, and the boat being refused permission to dock, which sounds like the stuff of high drama to me, was more or less glossed over. Obviously you need to keep your books to a readable length, and choose scenes that advance your narrative, but still, there’s so much material out there, it must be hard to choose!
I also am not aware of any good Robin Hood novels — it’s sounding to me like there is an opportunity out there for some aspiring writer! (definitely not me, I don’t write!)
Sharon,
Thank you for taking the time to answer the many questions that you receive in the comments section. It is really appreciated. I agree with the other comments – every word in your blog is read and re-read with appreciation:)
I appreciate your following up on when ‘The Reckoning’ will be available in Kindle format. Of course with the first two in the Plantagenet series being re-released I will be hopeful to soon see them in Kindle format too.
I am fortunate to live about an hour away from Ann Arbor, so will be up to see you at the book signing. Unfortunately, having already bought a copy of ‘The Devil’s Brood’ in both hardback and Kindle format, I probably won’t be buying a third copy in paperback. I also won’t mention the Kindle edition at Nicola’s books. I’d likely get stoned, or at the very least quickly thrown out. Looking forward to seeing you in August.
I enjoyed every word, please don’t shorten.
I had to laugh at your statement that “Here Be Dragons” was written in 1185 – I’ve long wished Eleanor would have written an autobiography, would that was the case.
I would love to see Sunne on the big screen. As long as no one suggests that, that prat Johnny Depp plays any part in it. Sorry ladies.
Hi Sharon,
greetings from Scotland. 🙂
Well, Arminius more or less stole the book already. I’ll simply have to weave his story in with the others plot threads and write a big doorstopper of a book. I don’t mind those, though publishers may, esp. if they come from a newcomer. So it’s either taking the risk, or writing the second book first; it’s a a trilogzy of standalones after all.
Ciaran, the Dalriatan chief, is a fictional character. I keep coming up with pretty cool ones. 😉 The pro side is that I’ll have ideas (characters, historical settings, plots) for several books, the disadvantage is that the secondary characters keep wanting larger roles – and I’ve made those up, too. *sigh* I won’t be surprised if Ciaran’s story will become another doorstopper. I’ll need to have a word with that Saxon guy who’s supposed to be a secondary character. But that one’s on the waiting line until I’ve finished the Roman trilogy.
Now if I only could write faster, but speed doesn’t work for me – I’ve the failed Nano attempts to prove it. 🙂
Have to say I’m not a John fan. I grew up knowing him as bad guy – same as Richard III I guess. Then the pendulum swung the other way due to the Warren biography and Here Be Dragons. Then I began researching him from the viewpoint of Fulke FitzWarin and there were a few sticky moments. After that I researched him for the Marshal novels. Coming across a few of his personal letters, what the Histoire says about him and certain other aspects of my research led me to think ‘whoah, I’m glad I’m never going to be in the same room as this person!’ So my personal pendulum has swung back. Highly intelligent man who was often served a bum deal -yes. But very scary too. And that’s as much as I’m sayin’ here!
I too share Sharon’s reservations about Alison Weir’s work. I would say always check the statements and sources because sometimes opinions are stated as fact.
McLynn’s book Lionheart and Lackland should be taken with a huge pinch of salt. I’ve just looked up his quote on Eleanor. a ‘Dark complexion, black eyes, black hair and was curvaceous with a figure that never ran to fat even in old age.’ Yikes! Weir says Eleanor had ‘long auburn locks’.
Can’t help your friend with the Robin Hood book. I know of some, but I’ve never read them, so I’ve no idea how good they are. I live in Nottingham too! Familiarity breeds contempt I guess. Anyone got an opinion on the Douglas Boyd book Eleanor, April Queen of Aquitaine?
Have a great time on your travels. I know quite a few folks are hoping to see you at the HNS Conference.
Of all books I would love to see a bbc series (a movie would never do) of Here Be Dragons, but I agree with others that too much would be lost, so I would be sure to be disappointed.
I have a Robin Hood novel by Jennifer Roberson called Lady of the Forest. It may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but I quite enjoyed it. It is much grittier and darker than the legends.
Hello all from an expat living in Eleanor’s Aquitaine
Have just discovered this blog having just finished reading Devil’s Brood. Fascinating reading (both the book and this blog!).
In answer to the Robin Hood question I also thoroughly enjoyed the book mentioned above, Lady of the Forest.
Elizabeth, I have a copy of Eleanor’s biography by Douglas Boyd as he and his wife are friends of my mother-in-law. I found it a lot more readable than many of her other biographies – and I have read a lot of them, she fascinates me (so much so that one of my daughters is called Aliénor). I recently read your novels about Will Marshall – what a charmed life that man lead! – and have been recommending them to my history loving friends.
Sharon, your blog posts can never be too long for me!
I have to agree with Suzanne about being drawn to John. I couldn’t call myself sympathetic, but I find him a compelling character — and certainly more intriguing and nuanced than his reputation. That said, I’m glad to not have to know him!
I’m trying to convince my husband to make the drive to Ann Arbor from Chicago. I’ve pointed out to him that we really should go, as you’re partially responsible for our son’s name. We may have never settled on Bryn if I hadn’t read your books and decided he needed a proper Welsh name!
Hi, Sharon. As a dedicated Robin Hood afficionado, I felt obligated to make a few suggestions for Robin Hood reading. Parke Godwin’s SHERWOOD is quite good, taking Robin to a different setting at the time of the Norman Conquest rather than the traditional late 12th century setting. Michael Cadnum’s IN A DARK WOOD is considered a juvenile novel, but I consider it worthy of adult reading; it follows the POV of a sympathetic if flawed sheriff of Nottingham as he comes to terms with the presence of outlaws in his neighbouring forest. For anyone interested in the classic tellings, the versions of Howard Pyle and J. Walker McSpadden remain popular (and can be read for free online). Henry Gilbert’s ROBIN HOOD AND HIS MERRIE MEN is nearly a hundred years old now I think, but it is more challenging and lifts Robin out of the realm of a child’s hero.
I hope these suggestions help!
I am a great admirer of Parke Godwin’s two books about Robin Hood, and cannot recommend them highly enough. They have, for me, the curious and satisfying ring of “authenticity” which goes far beyond impeccable research. It is hard to explain – only that when I have finished such a book (which by necessity relies much on imagination), I sigh happily to myself and think, “Yes, that is how it must have been”. Ireally cannot imagine anything better than that feeling for a lover of history. And I very much enjoy your books about the high-hearted Plantagenets. Could anyone be more fascinating than Eleanor?
When I mentioned that I was fascinated by your descriptions of food it is more of a morbid fascination. I have been a vegetarian for most of my life and so would never want to eat the food myself. Reading about refeathered peacocks and roasted boars heads conjures such vivid images in my mind that I am transported completely to another time as I am reading. The food item that has fascinated me the most is the “glazed pilgirm”. The pike that is boiled at the head, fried in the middle, and roasted at the tail. How was that done? Was the fish cut into three pieces, cooked and then put back together on the plate? I would really like some reseach recommendations. And while we’re talking research I would love to know more about the clothes they wore. Chausses and braies are just a few of the items of clothing that intrigue me.
While I would love to see all of your books made into films I would be concerned that it might go the same way as “The Mists of Avalon”. The TV series based on that book just tried to cram too much in but so many important things were also left out. It was a bit of a disaster.
I am looking forward to hearing all about the Historical Novel Society Convention. Please feel free to make the blog as long as you like. Reading your posts brightens up the cold winter days we are having here in the south of Australia.
Hello,
This is in response to the reader looking for Robin Hood books. Sometime in the early 90’s, I read a book about Robin Hood that I recall thinking was a good read. The book is, “LADY OF THE FOREST” by Jennifer Roberson and there is a sequel to it, “LADY OF SHERWOOD” You can read more about them on the author’s webpage here: http://www.cheysuli.com/author/book.forest.html
The author has a note on her website about the publisher “repackaging” them. I saw the new covers and it’s a shame they were repackaged as romance books because if memory serves me, they had a substantial and well developed plot. I think the new book covers may put off readers looking for a little more substance but the original book cover is still being shown on the author’s website. (I guess the old saying, “Don’t judge a book by its cover” is applicable here. I do recall they had more historical detail in them than any other Robin Hood book I had read. I believe Robin in these books had just returned from fighting in the Crusades.
Happy Reading!
Sharon, I have been a huge fan of yours from the first book I read (SAINTS) and have devoured them all. Peters’ Brother Cadfael made me fall in love with the British MA, and your books have delightfully filled in historical facts. I confess, though, that I have just now discovered your website, as DEVIL’S BROOD directed me to it. After catching up on all the months of blogs, I would so like to comment on several things, but I feel like it’s old stuff now, so I will spare you. I do want to say, though, that I for one prefer historical accuracy over high drama (although both are important), which is why I so value your comments at the end of your books to tell us what was true and where you took liberties, if any, and who is fictional. The more comments, the better!
On another issue, I would also call myself a Yorkist. Have you read ROYAL BLOOD by Bertram Fields? Fields is an attorney who approaches Richard’s “case” as if he were the defense attorney building his defense. In my opinion, he does a superb job of considering the facts as we know them, the motives, means and opportunities. He is convinced that many others (Buckingham???) were far more likely candidates for being the culprit(s), but certainly not Richard.
Thank you for sharing your gift with us!
Hello Sharon, I was so excited to see that you are coming to Northern Virginia. I live nearby and I am not going to miss this opportunity to meet one of my all-time favorite authors! I’m bringing my dear friend and fellow fan, Lyn Rae, who I believe has corresponded with you via e-mail a few times. We work together and constantly talk about books and we refer back to yours often.
Like so many others, I, too would like to thank you for taking the time to keep up with this blog and for corresponding with your fans. I love the behind the scenes commentary and the insights into your writer’s mind and I’m always adding books to my reading list that have been recommended by you and the other posters here.
As a historical novelist you “fill in the blanks” so well, and I’ve wondered if you’ve found historical evidence to support the nature of the personal relationships depicted between your historical characters? You’ve told us how lax some chroniclers were in recording the factual histories of these people, so I can’t imagine they gave much insight into their feelings for one another? I’m a hopeless romantic, so I guess I really would like to know whether the love stories in your novels, (or hate stories, as the case may be), are derived more from historical sources and how much is left up to your imagination?
Sharon,
I have to agree with everyone about not shortening your blog – unless it interferes with getting the next books out 🙂
I have never been a John fan but that is mostly because of the Robin Hood stories that we have been given over the years. Like Elizabeth C, I wouldn’t want to be on his bad side. It is probably true that he was pretty much bullied and ignored by his older brothers, and we know that Eleanor didn’t coddle him. (Or like him much from what you write). I have wondered a lot about Richard III, but am more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I have read some Alison Weir, but have read so many other biographies and historical fiction, that she hasn’t been an authority for me.
The movie is never as good as the book, still it could be fun…
I am hoping to catch you on your tour, either in DC or OH, depending on where I am flitting to during that time period!!
Thanks for taking time to answer questions and keep this forum going. Great stuff.
Sharon: I think you must have been reading my mind! I was intending to ask you your opinion on the possible children of Joanna & Llewellyn. I just looked at Douglas Richardson’s “Plantagenet Ancestry” and he lists four children: Gwladus Ddu, Dafydd, Ellen, and Susanna. He gives an extensive list of sources supporting his argument that Gwladus was Joanna’s daughter. I just wondered if recent research has come up with more since you wrote Dragons. I wish there was some way to prove it definitely one way or the other, since I am descended from Gladys and Roger de Mortimer and I would really like to know!!
I agree that you should not change your blog. I enjoy reading it – the longer the better!
Personally, I think the reign of John makes great drama, love him or hate him. There’s lots there to frighten you for sure. I’ve read a few of the bios, most notably Warren’s and Turner’s and recommend both. It’s interesting how other historians have such strong feelings for or against John, but no one defends his cruelty (such as his treatment of Matilda de Braose and her son in his care). On the other hand, a surprising number of historians are cavalier about some of Richard’s excesses. The massacre of thousands of Muslim hostages at Acre may have been militarily expedient rather than out of cruelty, but to have the capability to do that still speaks to a hardened nature. John’s nature was hot-bloodedly cruel; Richard’s blood was cold. I’m not sure I prefer one to the other, but both make for interesting study.
Re: Marilyn’s question concerning the children of Llywelyn and Joan. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states that Llewelyn and Joan had one son, Dafydd and at least four daughters (Gwladus, Elen, Margaret (or Marared), and Susanna). Three of the daughters married into Marcher families (a consistent policy of creating close ties with Llewelyn’s marcher neighbours in the interests of stability).
Gwladus first married Reginald de Braose, the father of William. After Reginald’s death in 1227, she married Ralph Mortimer and it is through her that the modern English families traces its descent from Llewelyn.
Elen married John the Scot.
Margaret first married John de Braose, Lord of Gower and after his death in 1232, she married Walter Clifford.
Susanna does not appear in the pedigrees; in Nov 1228 she was put by the king in the care of Nicholas de Verdon and his wife and that is the only reference that survives of her.
Tangwystil’s daughter by Llewelyn, Gwenllian, married William de Lacy and survived until 1281. Her son by Llewelyn was the unfortunate Gruffudd who died trying to escape from the Tower of London.
Ken: Thank you so much for that information. I should have said in my post above that Gladys m. Ralph de Mortimer (not Roger). Richardson gives as one of his proofs that Gladys was Joanna’s daughter the fact that Llewelyn transferred the castles in Knighton and Norton to Gladys’ husband Ralph de Mortimer, and that the castles were part of Gladys’ maritagium. Earlier they were part of Joanna’s maritagium from John. He gives other proofs as well, too numerous to list here. He has the same information on Susanna that you list. He does not have a Margaret in the list; however, he lists a “possible child” (un-named) as married to Malcolm 7th Earl of Fife and an “alleged child” Angharad of Wales married to Maelgwn ap Maelgwn lord of Cardigan Is Aeron. Anyway, I will accept that Gladys was indeed Joanna’s daughter and not illegimate.
Sorry Sharon to hog your blog! I’m sure you will forgive Marilyn and me!
I think its taken as pretty much a ‘given’ that Llewelyn and Joan (Siwan) had a daughter called Margaret or Marared. See J Beverley Smith’s book on Llewelyn ap Gruffudd.
Can you tell us more of your descendancy from Ralph de Mortimer/Gwladys?
On the subject of legitimacy, It’s interesting to note that Joan herself the (illegitimate) daughter of King John, was herself made ‘legitimate’ by Pope Honorious 111 in April 1226, in order to make their son Dafydd’s succession legal, to the detriment of his older half-brother Gruffudd.
Fascinating stuff isn’t it??
Hi Sharon,
Sorry, I have a question about the book signing. I’ve never been to one before and I’m not sure if this is proper etiquette, but I have a first edition of Sunne in Splendour, is it OK if I bring that book and ask for an autograph?
Hi Sharon and crew,
I mentioned a comedy show I did about Robin Hood (and medieval history in pop culture) a few months ago, and now a couple of films we made for it are online, If you’re into medieval history (which I think you all are!), or Robin Hood I thought you might be interested…
http://vimeo.com/4284423
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moJlZufZBFo
ps. It is comedy, so don’t expect a masterpiece!
Ken: Here is my lineage from Gladys: Roger Mortimer m. Maude Braose, Edmund Mortimer (Baron Mortimer) m. Margaret de Fiennes, Roger Mortimer (first Earl of March) m Joan de Genevil, Katherine Mortimer m. Thomas Beauchamp (Earl of Warwick), William Beauchamp (Baron Abergevenny) m. Joan FitzAlan, Elizabeth Beauchamp m. James Butler (Earl of Ormond), Elizabeth Butler m. John Talbot (Earl of Shrewsbury), Sir Gilbert Talbot m. Audrey Cotton, Sir John Talbot m. Margaret Troutbeck, Anne Talbot m. Thomas Needham, Robert Needham m. Frances Aston, Dorthoy Needham m. Sir Richard Chetwood, Grace Chetwood m. Rev. Peter Bulkeley (my immigrant American ancestors), then ten more generations in America down to me. (I am in the eleventh generation in America). I have 32 generations of Llewelyn’s family from Llewellyn, Prince of Wales m. Angharet II Queen of Powys in 994 down to me. It might interest you to know that Lady Godiva was Llewelyn’s 5th great-grandmother. I have not done any of this research myself, but many professional genealogists have written books about the royal lineages of some American colonists. So if we know our colonial ancestors, we can look them up.
Hello! I stumbled on this blog because I was googling for a genealogical chart for Here Be Dragons. . . it occurred to me that perhaps an overzealous fan had made one. And now I feel silly that I didn’t try to go straight to the source. I’ll have to come back to read more of the book later–I’m too busy reading an excellent book right now–but I thought that I’d comment quickly just in case there is such a chart floating around somewhere that someone could possibly send to me? If not, I’m only 150 pages in, so I suppose I’ll just whip up my own as I go along. I’m a relatively new but avid fan, and I’m so happy to have discovered the blog–looking forward to reading more soon–thank you!
Phew Marilyn! What an ancestry. Should we address you as Lady Marilyn??
I am, as fas as I can find out, totally Welsh. My own surname is John (no ‘s’), which is very common in Wales, particularly Carmathen and Pembroke. The Welsh for John is Ieuan (there is no ‘J’ in Welsh), which is the reason Joan or Joanne was called ‘Siwan’ in Welsh.
Unfortunately, I can only trace my line back to the mid 1800’s!!
Nice point, Blair, and I would have to agree with several points you make. Both are interesting. I don’t know if we can necessarily judge historical figures by today’s morals, though it is human nature to do so. Speaking of human nature, it is also very hard to be given extreme power and be able to use it wisely 100% of the time. It is important to remember that most monarchs were either born to it or took it by force, neither of which may predispose them to use power wisely.
Melanie: Of course, what you say is true; modern standards need not apply in judging historical figures as their actions were defined and judged by the moral standard of their times.
One wonders however if future historians may judge us and our actions by our own standards. If so, how will they explain Guantanamo Bay, controversial wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and our informed choices to act or not to secure health for the environment? Whether power is inherited, seized, or granted by election for that matter, its use reveals more about human nature rather than less.
Murder was still murder in the 12th and 13th century. It is interesting to view how John was censured for his alleged murder of Arthur of Brittany and mistreatment of prisoners. A particularly ugly example of John’s action that is much criticized is his choice to execute 28 Welsh hostages for the peace after their fathers broke that peace with King John. On the other hand Richard executed thousands of Muslims at Acre and suffered no great censure. Richard’s choice may have been out of military necessity, but the fact that there was no great condemnation of the act may have been because the chroniclers of the time did not value Muslim life as human life of equal value to Christians. Some of those same chroniclers approved of the Jewish massacres at London, Lynn, Stamford and York in 1189/1190, which Richard himself condemned officially.
As I say, these men in their times make interesting study.
Sharon, I look forward to reading Lionheart, but I intend to catch up on your Plantagenet trilogy first… asap!
In your last blog you said you were reading Michelle Moran’s book, Cleopatra’s Daughter. How did you get it? It doesn’t come out until 9/15/09.
Ken, no Ladies required! The vast majority of my ancestors were common ordinary people. Unfortunately, nobody kept records on them – only on the nobility and royalty.
OK! I promise this is my last post before your next blog!
I just posted this on the HFO site, but I thought you would be the best person to reply as I cite examples from your books and I’m not sure if you read the HFO comments.
I was wondering if there is an accepted rule when writing about named people in the MA. For example, my protagonists include: Othon de Grandson; Pierre, Count (Comte) de Savoie and Jean de Grailly. Do readers/editors prefer to anglicise all these names and titles, or as I have read in your books, mix them up a bit? e.g. in the ‘Reckoning’ you have ‘Eleanor of Castile’, Blanche of Artois, Henry of Almain, etc, but also ‘Simon de Montfort’, Roger de Mortimer’, etc. I also have Welsh names and because of the obvious language difference, will continue with the use of ‘ap’ for ‘of’, as in Llewelyn ap Gruffudd.
I have started along the lines of Othon de Grandson, Peter, Count (Comte) of Savoy and Pierre de Champvent (otherwise there is confusion among the ‘Peters’!). It has struck me however, that this is inconsistent and may be confusing, when they all happen to be in England.
What do you think? Is there a generally accepted rule?
Ken, I don’t know if you were throwing that out for everyone or for Sharon, but I have read lots of notes in historical novels in which the authors explain why they chose certain forms over others, sometimes for simplicity for the reader, sometimes preferring one form over another used by another author to help keep the different author’s interpretations distinct from each other, and sometimes simply on an aesthetic basis (looks or sounds better to the author). Of course, dealing with Anglo-Norman England, an author might want to emphasize the how foreign the Norman names would seem to the native English, therefore anglicization might not be the best choice.
I don’t know if that helps, but my guess would be there is no one general rule that applies in all situations.
Hi, Ken,
I just got back from the Historical Novel Society convention outside Chicago and am trying to catch up. Since I probably won’t be able to post a new blog entry till next week, I thought it would be easier to give you a quick reply now. Blair is right; there is no general rule that applies in all situations. As for the examples you cited in my books, there is an easy explanation. De Montfort was Simon’s surname, whereas that was not true of Blanche of Artois,etc. I would suggest therefore that you go with Othon de Grandson, using “de” when it refers to a surname, but use Peter of Savoy since that designates his origin. An exception (there always is one, isn’t there?) is William of Ypres in Saints; I did refer to him as William de Ypres. As you know, surnames were in a state of flux in the earlier MA, and of course many people did not use any until much later. That is a fascinating topic in itself, how Ralph the smith eventually became Ralph Smith. I needed a surname for William de Ypres because his enemies (of whom he had many) would not have referred to him by the more familiar William; also, since William is all too common a name in the MA, I had to make sure that my readers would know which William I meant. See….there always is a certain logic behind these choices!
As Blair pointed out, writers make their own choices, so you should feel free to pick the style that suits you. Some authors use the title all the time. That doesn’t work for me, as I doubt that an earl’s intimates and close kin would refer to him as Leicester. I have done this when the characters are not central to the plot, though. If I already have a baker’s dozen of Williams, I am quite happy to go with Arundel to avoid confusion. For the same reason, I use variations of the same name to make life easier for my readers and for myself. Hence you find Maude and Maud, or Maude and Matilda, which are the vernacular and Latin forms of the same name. In DB and in Lionheart, there are characters named Henry and Henri and Heinrich or William and Guillaume, as in William Marshal and Guillaume de Longchamps.
As for the Welsh, you are quite correct to use ap or ab, which actually means “son of.” I know you know that, but possibly not all of our readers do; ap is the usual form, but it becomes ab before names that begin with vowels, as in ab Owain. These are not strictly surnames, of course, but they were the forms used by the men themselves, and who are we to argue with them? They are similar to Fitz Roy, which means son of the king, or Fitz John, son of John. Surnames were like medieval spelling, open to interpretation!
I hope this helps. I had a wonderful time at the HNS, have interesting (I hope) stories to share in my next blog. But Richard is in a royal temper because I had to interrupt a chapter right in mid-flow and I may have to indulge him and finish the chapter before I can get back to the blog.
Hello Sharon!
Please, please don’t shorten your wonderful blogs. I love hearing about your research and the progress of your work.
When I was reading your comments about Historical Accuracy vs High Drama I was reminded of a quote I once observed on the wall of a History professor’s office:
“As soon as history is properly told
there will be no more need of romances.”
The professor had attributed it to Walt Whitman. This has remained one of my favorite quotes of all time, and affirms my belief that History itself is the best drama.
Despite the potential for disappointment, I would still love to see Sunne in the form of a movie (preferably a long, long movie!). Have you ever thought about whom you would like to see cast as Richard and Anne?
I will definitely be up at Chester County Books in July to meet you! I will be the one wearing miniature book jewelry.
Hi Sharon
Thanks for your email telling me that you were replying to my question through your blog. I tried emailing you back but your email server blocks any email I try to send!
As usual you give sound advice. I think that I stumbled on the style of using surnames when they exist and places of origin for others, without really knowing why. I had posted the same question on HFO and received some good comments, mostly along the same lines as your own thoughts.
Some however, preferred the use of ‘authentic’ names such as ‘Richard, Coeur-de-lion!’
Othon’s book is slowly emerging. He has just arrived at Windsor (circa 1250, with Peter of Savoy) to enter the Queen’s household as a squire to the Lord Edward. I find the greatest difficulty is in writing dialogue that sounds authentic for the time, but is acceptable to the modern reader, without it sounding too ‘stagey!’
Glad to see that you enjoyed the NHS convention and now I’ll let you get back to Richard. That’s one guy I wouldn’t want to upset?
Hi Sharon! Like EC, I just do not like John. My heart was softened by his care for Joanna (as shown in your novel), but then what he did to the hostages, to his nephew, to the de Broese family made him to be a cruel man (tho as someone upthread mentioned, Richared massacred Muslims, innocent women and children, and he is still considered a great man). BTW if I recall my history correctly, Richard did not condemn those pogroms, in fact I seem to remember he instigated the one in York because he needed the money for his debt (I could have this wrong, I’m sure someone will correct me!)
Someone asked about Cecily of York; a friend recommended Sandra Worth’s books about the war of the roses. I haven’t read them yet but that might be a possible read for you.
Sharon: I am currently reading Marian Meade’s biography of Eleanor. I know that you don’t think she has all her facts right. I don’t have the book in front of me to quote, but she states that Richard made a public confession of his homosexuality. Do you believe that is an incorrect statement? I don’t know what she used as a source.
Hi Ken,
I am not sure I want to read about Orthon, wasn’t he one of King Edward’s henchmen in subjugating Wales?
SJP fans all seem to have fallen in love with Wales and I for one am sorry that the people were unable to maintain their independence from England. Certainly many of their laws were more enlightened than England’s. As Llewellyn said they followed the Holy Church most of the time, but some of their laws went directly against Church teachings. Such as a woman instigating a divorce from her husband! Wow! Talk about heresy!
And the very idea that a man wasn’t allowed to beat his wife????!!! That law was totally different from England and the continent and everywhere within the Church’s reach.
However, this type of assimilation at swordpoint or gun point (in these modern times) or via biblical teachings has been taking place for centuries the world over when a more powerful society decides to take over or eliminate the customs, mores, and language of a conquered people. For example Tibet/China, American Indians/white europeans, Russia and all its satellite countries, Spain/the natives of South America, Hawaiians/missionaries.
In The Reckoning and other books about Llewellyn and David ap Gryffudd, Edward’s behavior toward Wales just baffles me! He apparently thought he was acting for God and in the best interests of Wales, when really all it was about was power! And the Church backed him and damned all of Wales when the offer made to LLewellyn to give up his Princedom, his people, his tradition and his heritage in exchange for an English Earldom was declined. David ap Gryffudd was definitely the catalyst in starting that last war prematurely before Wales was ready and England was vulnerable (temporarily without its King).
Modern people tend to forget or maybe we just never knew, how powerful the “Holy Mother Church” (Catholicism) was during the MA. The Pope felt perfectly comfortable interfering in secular matters within the Kingdoms of France, Spain, Italy, Germany, England, and all of Europe, especially when he was well paid by one party or the other!! Henry II’s quarrel with Thomas a’ Beckett began over church clerks and priests who broke the King’s law and how they should be tried and punished. By the Church only? Or by the King’s judges?
The Tudors were descended from the Welsh and the marriage of Henry VII to Elizabeth of York united the two families effectively shutting out any other Lancastrian claims to the throne of England, but even that was flawed by Henry VIII’s subsequent actions in divorcing his wife without Church sanction and taking upon himself all the power of the Church in England with Anne Boleyn’s encouragement. If the Episcopalians were into creating saints, Anne was martyrd for their faith at the beginning of the schism.
I wish you luck with your book. It sounds as though it is proceding nicely. And I wish I had the stick-to-itiveness to write my own book! In the meanwhile, I’ll read Sharon’s and Elizabeth’s and any other book I can get my hands on that is interesting!
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Leaf Qin once walks street a few an alleys‚ return to the oneself mansion house doorway inside the city.At this time‚ is seeing the ice son send two wear water cloud temple temple takes of beautiful looks female the monk come out.Those two female monks see leaf Qin‚ but also recognize and salute””once saw leaf’s senior ……” then nose smile a responsibility to leave.
The very best way for you to situate McDonald’s coupons is to find them online in printable form and download them. Make sure to examine any sort of fine print for the number of vouchers that could be made use of at any sort of one time.
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