medieval marriages

Penman

       I’d hoped to have a new blog posted this past week, but I was entangled with the Angevins.   At least it was productive, for I was able to finish a key chapter for Lionheart, in which Richard had confrontations with the King of Sicily and then the King of France.  Richard didn’t always play well with others, although it is hard to fault him for his feuding with Philippe Auguste, who could have taught Iago about treachery and betrayal.

       Richard also got to meet Berengaria at long last in this chapter.  Actually it wasn’t their first meeting, as I think they met about six years earlier at her father’s court in Navarre.  Ambroise, the minstrel or jongleur who accompanied Richard on crusade and wrote a rhyming chronicle about it, says that “most dear the king did love her and revere; since he was Count of Poitiers, his wish had wished for her always.”  Interestingly, the other major chronicle of the Third Crusade also says much the same thing:  “Attracted by her graceful manner and high birth, he had desired her very much for a long time, since he was first Count of Poitou.”  

      Ambroise was most likely the only chronicler who actually saw Berengaria, describing her as “a fair and worthy damsel, true and good, of very gentle womanhood.”   But the description that is most quoted is the snarky one  from Richard of Devizes, who never laid eyes upon her—that she was “more prudent than pretty.”   He also comments snidely that when Richard and Berengaria sailed from Sicily, she was “probably still a virgin.”   For what it’s worth, apparently none of these chroniclers thought Richard’s sexual urges were anything but conventional.    My favorite chronicler, William of Newburgh, calls Berengaria “a virgin of famous beauty and prudence,” but like Richard of Devizes, he never saw her either.   We know that two of her paternal aunts were noted for their beauty, as was her younger sister Blanca.   So while she may not have been another Helen of Troy, I think we can safely say that she wouldn’t have scared anyone when she went out in public.  BTW, her real name was Berenguela; this was translated into French as Berengere or Berengiere, and eventually it would become Anglicized as the name by which history knows her, Berengaria.   A shame, for Berenguela is lovely.

        Moving from the twelfth to the thirteenth century, several of you had questions about the children of Joanna and Llewelyn Fawr.  Ken kindly posted information from Joanna’s entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, which was originally written by the Victorian historian Kate Norgate, and was subsequently updated by the British historian, A.D. Carr.  I still stand by my position that we can only be positive that Joanna was the mother of Davydd and Elen.  A. D. Carr says she was “probably” the mother of Gwladys and Margaret, but that is not a certainty.  He cites no source for a daughter named Susanna, and I am rather skeptical of that since I’ve never heard a word about her before.   I want to repeat, though, that I have not been able to keep current on  research done since I wrote Here Be Dragons more than twenty years ago; the same is true for Richard III and Simon de Montfort.  Happily, I am totally up to date on the Angevins, having had them as my royal roommates for the past fifteen years or so.   The Oxford National Biography is a wonderful source for writers or those interested in the MA.  I have information about subscribing to it, but I’ll put that in a comment to this blog.

       Suzanne, you’d asked an interesting question earlier—why writers select certain scenes to dramatize.   Part of the answer is simple practicality; writers know we can’t turn in 2,000 page books.   So we have to leave certain scenes on the cutting room floor, especially if they involve secondary characters.  That is why I did not dramatize Isabel Neville’s shipboard childbirth scene in Sunne, or why I did not dramatize the capture of the Scots king in Devil’s Brood, although both scenes would have been fun to do.  I tend to follow my instincts when it comes to writing scenes about primary characters; I just seem to “know” when an episode or event needs to be brought center stage and when it can be relegated to the narrative account.

         Shauna, you posed an interesting question, too, asking if there is any evidence that Joanna loved her father.   Sadly, there is very little surviving evidence of medieval emotions; occasionally a chronicler will give us a glimpse into medieval hearts, as when one reported that King Henry III and his queen were grief-stricken at the death of their little deaf-mute daughter or when a chronicler noted that Richard III and Anne were devastated by the loss of their son.  Sometimes a hint surfaces midst the dry facts of the Pipe Rolls, etc, as when Edward I’s crown had to be repaired because “it pleased the king to throw it into the fire.”  This tantrum was caused by his discovery that his daughter Joanna, widow of the Earl of Gloucester, had dared to take one of Gloucester’s squires in a clandestine second marriage; despite Edward’s initial rage, Joanna eventually won him over.   

        So….I have to rely upon common sense and logical deductions about what we know of human nature.  In Joanna’s case, she took a great risk in sending John a secret warning that his life might be endangered if he invaded Wales as planned.   I can think of no other reason for her action except love for her father.    I based my conclusions about her marriage to Llewelyn in great part upon his remarkable act, forgiving her for an adultery that was very damaging to him politically.  By 1230, he was at the zenith of his power in Wales, and Henry III was no threat, a weak king who could not have punished Llewelyn for putting aside an unfaithful wife.  Moreover, public opinion on both sides of the border would have been firmly on Llewelyn’s side had he done so; there was very little sympathy in the MA for faithless wives.  But Llewelyn forgave Joanna and restored her to favor, despite her unpopularity with the Welsh.  Even more significantly, he established a friary in her memory when she died.  So it is difficult for me not to conclude that he loved this woman.  

     What of Joanna’s feelings, though?   Here is where psychology rears its ugly head.  From all that we know of Llewelyn, he was not a man to have nursed an unrequited love for 24 years, for that is how long they’d been wed at the time of her adulterous affair with William de Braose.   If she hadn’t returned his love, his would eventually have withered and died.   Theirs had to have been a marriage of genuine affection and respect in order for it to have survived such a severe test.  And the proof that they were able to repair the damage done is that friary on Llanfaes. 

     Paula, I am so glad that you were impressed by the scene in Falls the Shadow between Simon de Montfort and Rabbi Jacob and his son, Benedict, for I am as proud of that chapter as I am of anything I’ve ever written.  I wanted to show my readers how pre-carious life had become for Jews in the 13th century, culminating in their expulsion from England by Edward I in 1290.  They were hated and scorned for being money-lenders, yet they’d been forced into this dubious profession, barred from joining the craft and trade guilds, from holding land, or attending universities.   But I also wanted to do something more difficult—to show how a medieval Christian like Simon viewed Jews, that for him, it all came down to salvation.  He recognized the courage it took for Jacob for to come to him and ask to have the rioters punished.  He saw Jacob’s soul as one worth saving and he could not understand why Jacob would not embrace the True Faith, why he courted damnation.

       This scene between these two men goes to the heart of the differences between their world and ours.  In the MA, tolerance was not viewed as a virtue, and we find that very hard to understand.   This was true for all of their major religions–Christian, Jewish, or Muslim; they were all sure that theirs was the only way to God, their faith the only means to gain salvation.     

         I am trying a new tactic to keep these blogs within a manageable length.  I am going to answer some of your queries by posting comments of my own, as I did in thanking Steven for providing the URL to the William of Newburgh chronicle.  So don’t assume I am ignoring you if I don’t respond to your questions in this blog; just check for my re-plies in the last blog!    

      And now on to a subject we seem to be discussing a lot lately—medieval sex!   Paula, you ought to co-authoring this blog with me, as this is another of your queries–the belief that women must experience pleasure during sex to conceive, a question also addressed quite well by Elizabeth Chadwick.  Elizabeth points out that there were various theories about sex, some of them quite contradictory.  For example, there was a school of thought which held that a daughter was conceived only if there was a weakness in the man’s semen; this, however, did not keep them from still “blaming” the woman if she gave birth to a daughter, not a son!   Aristotle’s teachings were quite influential in the MA, and many accepted his belief that the man provided the seed and the woman the material.  But other medieval writers believed that both the man and the woman must provide “seed” for conception to occur.  And there was indeed a belief that conception was linked to a woman’s sexual satisfaction.  I’ve seen it suggested—but never with a citation for a medieval source—that this was one of the arguments which Louis’s advisers used to convince him to divorce Eleanor, insisting that she could never give him the son he so desperately needed because she no longer wanted to share his bed.   You can see the dangers in this argument, though, for rape victims.   By pure coincidence, I am dealing with this very question in my current Lionheart chapter, with a scene between Berengaria and Joanna in which they discuss the “marital debt” and the “sin of lust” and whether conception depended upon a woman’s sexual enjoyment.  BTW, the marital debt was owed by both husband and wife; the marriage bed was the one place where the Church accorded men and women equal rights.   The Church took this “obligation” so seriously that the marital debt was still owed even if one of the partners contracted leprosy.   

     I’m going to end this blog with a mystery.  A reader asked me if any of you might be familiar with a novel about a young woman who moves from her home in the south of England to Northumbria to marry; toward the book’s end, the family meets Richard, Duke of York, father of “my” Edward and Richard.   She can’t remember the author or title, so it’s a challenge.   Anyone up to it?

July 12, 2009

      

  

161 thoughts on “medieval marriages”

  1. Here is the information about the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. I’d invested in the set some years ago, and at first I didn’t see why I’d need to spend so much more for the on-line version. It turned out to be well worth the money; not only are the entries reflective of modern scholarship, there is a feature that points readers to books and journal articles, as with the article that Ken cited about Joanna. If you are interested, you can purchase a subscription for a month at a time, or on a yearly basis at a cheaper rate. Currently it costs 26 pounds sterling plus VAT a month for anyone living outside of North or South America, or 205 pounds sterling per year; for Americans, it costs $29.95 a month or $295 a year. There are many more entries than in the original series, but some odd omissions. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Hal’s wife Marguerite doesn’t get a mention; she was a crowned Queen of England even if she never reigned, and I’d think that ought to qualify her for an entry of her own.

  2. I use it almost daily! There are some weird omissions, though. I wrote it once to suggest an addition and got back a pleasant reply, but I don’t know if my suggestion will ever be acted upon.

  3. Just to say that I log on to the Oxford DNB for free, using ATHENS. My institution is the National Library of Wales and I am sure other institutions/libraries in the UK and the USA must also have access.
    Another great blog Sharon. I am going to spend a bit of time researching the children of Llewelyn and Joanna and I’ll let you know if I find something new!

  4. Regarding sexual theories, I’ll share one which was said by Jews in the early days, as far back as 250 AD: In Leviticus, Chapter 12 Verse 1, they speak of the ‘uncleaness’ after a birth (which also the Christians kept, so that a woman after giving birth could not go in to the Church until a certain time has passed, whereas they would ‘church’ her), and say “If a woman have concieved seed and borne a man child”. From here, Sages learned and said in the Talmud: ‘If a woman seeds first, it will be a male. And if the male seeds first, it will be a female.’
    So, who’s to blame for a male or female child? It would seem that the Male, as he should have more restraint, and wait until his wife ‘seeds’. This may be borne out by the fact that Jews have a Mitzvah – a commandment – to ‘pleasure’ their wives. They also have the traditional commandment of ‘Multiply and Replenish’, but the fact that there is a separate commandment telling them they must have relations seems to bear out the idea that a man must restrain himself for his wife – so that if she does not want to be pleasured, he cannot force her, or say that they were commanded to.
    On a different matter, and not to criticize you at all – it must be very busy work to write, and you still find time to write these amazingly long blogs – there was only one comment from you on the last blog. Again, I don’t want to sound critical, but since you raised the issue yourself I thought I could add a remark on this.

  5. Thank you once again for another fascinating entry, Sharon! I am grateful that you take the time to write this blog for us–I know that I, for one, am always happy to see an update from you and am interested to see what you have to say in response to previous entries’ questions. That’s a lot of fun, and I think you’re the most accessible author I’ve ever encountered. So cool. 🙂
    That’s an interesting point about Joanna and Llywelyn’s marriage. I think you must be right and that they truly loved each other for him to have taken her back as he did. Maybe it would have been different if Welsh law didn’t permit illegitimate children to inherit? Since Llywelyn did have other children he could have turned over his rule to, he didn’t really need Joanna for an heir. I think he must have loved her very much. That was lucky for them both. Marriage within a certain social class was very much a business or political deal, not companionate. Was it the same for the lower classes, though? Would a peasant girl be allowed to marry for love, or would she still be expected to marry whoever her father told her to? I know plenty of stories I’ve read where they marry for love, but they were just stories. I don’t know how accurate they were.
    Thanks again for taking the time to write your blog! Have a good day!

  6. Hey, Koby, cut me some slack, okay? I just posted the new blog last night and hadn’t had time yet to post my comments on the last blog. I have some of them up now, with more to come, including your very interesting question about Conrad of Montferrrat, a fascinating character in his own right. I am having some serious computer trouble, wasn’t even able to access my own website earlier today, so if Merlin, my totally misnamed computer, continues to throw tantrums, there might be a delay. But they will be up. Questions posted on this blog will be answered on it, either as comments or in my next blog.
    I do have news–I have added a new section of blogs I enjoy reading, and with luck, it should be up this week; click Author and then go to Sharon’s List of Favorites.

  7. OK – you question on the novel is intriguing will require some research – but it will be fun!!! On a separate note. It has always been my belief (and not just from your novels, but from other sources) that Joanna (or Joan) and Llewellyn truly loved each other. How else could he forgive her adultry, put aside an earlier born son in favor of a younger son in the succession, and found Llanfaes? And I believe that love like that has to be worked on by both parties, as you said. If she had lost interest/love, he certainly wouldn’t have lacked for bedmates.
    I have a question regarding marital debt. It seems a bit of a stretch as men were supposedly allowed to take what they wanted from their wives and wives owed submission to thier husbands. It doesn’t exactly seem equitable to me. But I know I haven’t read enough on this – so any inisght would be great!

  8. I just wanted to let everyone know that I have caught up with my comments for the last blog, and they have all been posted. They are very long, of course, but you guys must be used to that by now. I’ll try to keep current with blog queries from now on if I can, answering some separately instead of saving everything for the next blog. I hope to have my recommendations for books about sex in the MA up on the website soon, Michele, and I’ll talk more about the marital debt in my next blog.

  9. Hi, Sharon. Hope you don’t mind me using this latest blog to reply to a post from Gayle she made under ‘Blog Without End’ that I hadn’t noticed until today. She said that she wasn’t sure that she wanted to read about Othon as he was one of Edward’s ‘henchmen’ in subjugating Wales!
    in defence of Othon and his part in the Welsh wars, it is important to point out that he was in no way a mercenary knight, or one seeking to enrich himself with Welsh lands as was the case with the Marcher lords who had (for once) rallied to Edward seeing an opportunity to expand their influence. He was very much a man of honour in the service of his king, prepared to do virtually anything asked of him by Edward. More often involved in the campaigns in Gascony and the Holy Land, Othon served his king best as diplomat and advisor and became his most trusted friend and confidant. He actually received his knighthood and his properties as a result of his outstanding service during the Baron’s wars of the mid-1260’s.
    Although he served Edward in Wales and was very much involved in the fighting of 1277 and 1282 (he almost drowned trying to escape the Welsh attack on Luke de Tany’s forces after they tried to cross from Angelesy). He was also foremost (with Antony Bek) in several negotiations with Llewelyn and learned to repect and admire him, seeing paralells with his own small state of Savoy. His knowledge of the siting of castles and their design led him to oversee the work of Master James of St. George in the building of the famous castles.
    Much has been written of Edward’s motives in subjugating Wales and ‘absorbing’ it into England (to this day there is no place for the colours of Wales in the Union Jack)! Suffice it to say he did it because he could and the Welsh princes gave him (in his eyes) just cause! He had more resources available to him than any of the previous kings and he was a formidable soldier. The wars of 1277 and 1282 could probably have been avoided however, if Llewelyn and Dafydd had managed in the previous years to unite the principality and done more to foster good relations with the Marcher lords.
    These were now fighting on the king’s side, not from some common interest, but in their opposition to the revolts of the Welsh princes which threatened both king and themselves. Obviously the possibility of joining in the carving up of Wales following victory was pretty attractive too! Against these combined forces, the Welsh had no answer.
    It is also interesting to ponder how things might have been different if Simon de montfort (Llewelyn’s ally) had succeeded at Evesham and/or Edward had died at the hand of the assassin in Acre! But that’s history for you!!!!!
    Thank you Gayle for your good wishes for my book. I don’t find it easy to write but I am making steady progress. He was a fascinating man – ‘A Knight of Great Renown’ andI hope to do him justice. I hope too that if and when I get it published, you might change your mind and read it!

  10. Well, again, I apologize if I mispoke. I do not know all the circumstances, of course, and in the view of the young (me) time passes quickly, so that more than a fortnight seem to me like quite a long time.
    Another proof for Llewelyn’s love for Joanna is of course his great grief at her death that was recorded. As Sharon showed in Falls the Shadow, building a Monastery was no easy or cheap task, and indeed was quite expensive. Doing so does indicate great lova and care for Joanna, wanting her soul to be in Heaven.

  11. Oh, two things I forgot:
    Sharon, what about the rumors of Philip escaping an assassination attempt by Rashid al-Din Sinan, who was hired by Richard? Obviously, this sounds like another false accusation at Richard from Phillip’s side, but was there such an attempt, even if not by Richard? And will this be adressed?
    Also, I know this is pitiful, but if Lionheart extends to the first year of John’s reign this means we might see Joanna, at least in a cameo, no? (I know I’m sad, begging for Joanna all the time after a whole book has been written about her, but I loved your portrayal of her so much!)

  12. I’m pretty sure that the mystery book is The Founding by Cynthia Harrod-Eagles, the first book in her Morland Dynasty series. =)
    The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is indeed an absolutely fantastic resource, I’ll seriously miss it when I detach myself from my university in a few months.
    No questions from me, but I love all your blog posts. You have such fantastic information!

  13. Thanks, Meghan; I’ll pass the suggestion along and let you know if this was her mystery book. Great “defense” of Othon, Ken, but we do have a lot of Welsh “patriots” in our little community, and so you have to expect some of them to look askance at Edward! I was once challenged at a book reading by a woman who was convinced Edward was England’s greatest king and she thought I was too hard on him in my books. I pointed out that I thought I’d been fair to Edward–showing his military brilliance and courage, his intelligence, his sense of humor (love that bet with his laundress!) and devotion to his wife. But he was also ruthless–as most powerful men in the MA had to be–and naturally the Welsh saw him as their deadly enemy.
    Koby, you didn’t mispeak at all. I thought your questions were great, and I am the one who probably jumped the gun. When I read your first post, I thought you were taking me to task for not getting my responses up already in the last blog. But I later realized that you were simply voting in favor of my responding like this instead of waiting and trying to do everything in one monster blog. And you were right; I think it will be easier this way.
    Aargh—I just lost half of this message to you, Kody; Merlin strikes again. I am posting what is left right now and then trying again for the rest of your question.

  14. Okay, I’ll try again. There were no assassination attempts upon Philippe, Kody, although he did his best to spread the word that there were. Again, see Gillingham, p. 198-201 for a good overview of this French-English propaganda war. The hostility in Outremer between the French and Richard’s men became so intense that it sometimes seemed as if they would rather have been fighting each other instead of Salah al-din. One of the men most responsible for smearing Richard’s reputation was Philippe’s cousin, the Bishop of Beauvais. According to William Marshal, the bishop was “one of the men Richard hated most in all the world.” In 1197, the bishop was caught during a skirmish with Richard’s mercenary captain Mercadier and John (then back in the family fold); he was one of those fighting bishops, and would later play an active role in the famous Battle of Bouvines. Richard was delighted to imprison him. When the Pope protested this treatment of “a son of the Church,” Richard sent him the bishop’s hauberk, with the comment, “Here is your son’s shirt.”

  16. Hey, Meghan!
    Thank you so much for the book title (The Founding) and author. As soon as I saw the author’s name (Cynthia Harrod Eagles) I knew it was the right one. I had a dim memory of Herold or Herod as the last name and had been looking for that. Leave it to a fellow reader of historical fiction to come to the rescue! Thanks again, and thanks, Sharon, for putting my question to your readers. I am amazed at the depth of historical knowledge everyone has, and in between your books, reading your blog keeps my hunger for history satisfied. Keep writing!

  17. Sharon, Thank you so much for your wonderful blog entries. Though I have been reading your books for years, I have just discovered your blog and am loving it! I see that you make mention of Philippe Auguste and his various schemes to cause trouble for Richard the Lionhearted, namely in this case to blame Richard for assassination attempts that never even took place! I am a huge fan of Philippe and Richard both, and their constant rivalry is one of my favorite things about the late 12th century. How does one love Philippe? My only answer is that I must have been French in a past life to be so devoted to him, in spite of all his foibles. Thank you for taking the time to write for us, here and in your wonderful novels.

  18. It sounds to me like Richard I’s sexuality is in the eye of the beholder. Many sources seem to confirm he was heterosexual, while someone told me that the Pope chastised him for his and his knights’ “unnatural practices” though who knows what that means either.
    The facts being in dispute, my own inclination, were I to write about him, is to make him gay.. it sells better. 😉 Yeah, yeah, I know what that makes me. It’s a family trait.. my grandmother was one of those in a gold mining camp in the Yukon! SOMEBODY has to be the granddaughter of a prostitute… just be glad it was me.
    Nan Hawthorne

  19. Ken,
    I have a membership to the national library of Wales as well. I got mine at Prifysgol Aberystwyth. Where did you get yours?
    Iechyd Da,
    Dave

  20. Hi, everyone. I should be trying to figure out the mysteries of Facebook, having promised Ballantine that I’d join, but I decided it would be more fun to chat here. I wanted to thank you, Kody, for that interesting bit of information about Jewish theories of conception in ancient times. And for anyone wanting to learn more about medieval sexuality (which is all of us, I suspect) Elizabeth Chadwick is currently conducting such a discussion on her blog, which can be accessed from her website.
    Ken, I think it is wonderful that you intend to do some research about Joanna and Llewelyn’s children, but how do you plan to explain that to Othon? My characters want me to devote myself to them 24-7, and I can’t imagine Othon being so much more reasonable than mine. I know your Edward I won’t like it.
    Christy modestly neglected to mention that she has written a novel about Alys and Henry and Eleanor, called The Queen’s Pawn, which will be published next April. She believes that Alys and Henry did have a love affair, and as I’ve discussed earlier, I think that is a perfectly legitimate position to take even though I reached the other conclusion. So it will be very interesting to read Christy’s “take” on the amazing Angevins and Alys, who definitely deserved better than she got. Christy and I had fun at the HNS “arguing” about Philippe,as she is much more of a “Philippe fan” than I am. But we both agree that he was a highly successful king, intelligent and ruthless and single-minded, qualities that stood him in good stead in his battle to expand the power of the French Crown.

  21. Bore da, Dave!
    The NLW gave me membership as an independent researcher! Been most useful!
    Sharon, Othon is on his way back to Savoy as his father has just died (1258) and he is now Lord of Grandson. Edward is getting himself into all sorts of trouble with his new friends the Lusignans (that won’t last long!) and I have to imagine some scenes involving him alone.
    Othon told me that he wants some time to himself and so I am free for a couple of days to do some research!!!
    I have made some progress on Susanna (Susan?). Found a reference in the CPR for 1225-1232, p.230. In 1228, a certain Nicholas de Verdun, appeared to be in of Henry 111’s favour, and this favour manifested itself when the king’s … ‘dear and faithful Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clementia were granted custody of ‘Susanna’ our niece, the daughter of Llywelyn, prince of North Wales and Joanna his wife, to be brought up safe and secure without all injury.’
    It appears that Susanna was offered up as a hostage for the good behaviour of Llywelyn, but I am still researching what occurred in 1228.

  22. As we’ve discussed, I adore Philippe Auguste, but many of the traits that made him a great king: ruthlessness and the ability to sacrifice anything and anyone to achieve his goals, are the same things that made Richard the Lionhearted loathe him in the end. And Sharon, thank you so much for your kind mention of The Queen’s Pawn. My adventure with Alais and Eleanor, Richard, Henry and John is my first foray into the publishing world.

  23. Sharon – you’d be more than welcome on Facebook! It’s not as hard as you’d think. Elizabeth Chadwick is on and I am priviledged to be a “friend”.
    But don’t stop posting here! Not only do I find your blogs very interesting, but the group of sorts that has been formed in the comments section is a wonderful one! So many intelligent people with opinions about history and writing – it’s like my intellectual oasis on the ‘net.
    So thank you to all of you!

  24. For any of you who are interested in researching Llewelyn’s children, go to http://genforum.genealogy.com. I posted a question about this topic a couple of weeks ago and got a list of sources to research. It is a free site – type in Plantagenet in the surname box. There are some really serious genealogists doing MA research. I can give you the sources in Richardson’s Plantagenet Genealogy if anybody wants it as well.

  25. Marilyn!
    Thanks. What a great source of information that site is! I differ with some of their theories, but that’s all healthy. As Megan says, so many ‘intelligent’ people on this site, thanks to SKP!!

  26. Ken: Another interesting site on Genforum is the Medieval forum – just type in medieval in the surname slot. Richardson on Susanna: “In 1228 her custody was granted by King Henry III of England to Nicholas de Verdun, of Alton, Staffordshire, and Clemence his wife. Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1225-1232(1903):230. (Susanna called ‘niece’ by King Henry III). Note: Susanna’s subsequent history is unknown; however, Andrew McEwen suggests that she may well be Llewelyn’s unidentified daughter who married Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife.”

  27. Sharon,
    I apologize for not being able to contribute to the conversation about your beloved Welsh novels as I have not read them, yet! I am about halfway through The Devil’s Brood, so after I’m done, it will be on to those. However, I would like to ask a question I have always been curious about when it comes to authors.
    At work today, I was writing my first op-ed piece for our local newspaper and I had our Marketing Coordinator look it over. When it came back to me, it was covered in red. I must have had this horrified look on my face because she said “You can’t take this personally.” All I could think is, “How could I not take this personally? This is my writing. There is nothing more personal then your writing.”
    So my question is, how do you not take it personally? Whether it be your editor or your readers, how do you not get frustrated or hurt when something you put your heart and soul into falls short of everyone’s expectations?

  28. Yes its your writing, but if you are writing to be read, it is no longer ‘personal’ and you have to keep the reader in mind
    I’m not a writer professionally, but I have had times when my work is corrected. I consider the source first, and if its one I trust, I look at the corrections. I might talk with that person if I disagree, or if I have questions. I always always take it as a learning experience. And if the source is not credible, I thank them for their comments, and do exactly what I’d like with the information.

  29. Cindy,
    Thanks for your response. At the time I was writing this comment, I was also watching a special on J.K Rowling and she was talking about the reader’s response to her 7th Harry Potter book. She also said that it is very difficult to hear the critiques of her readers but she understands their feelings as the same time. I was posting this blog more in amazement than anything else. I respect the heck out of writers because they can take the criticism and still pursue their writing…

  30. Brenna, sorry if I came on too strong. I do that sometimes! I think because I’m not a writer, I don’t have as much invested in criticism. Now, question my methods in the classroom, we’ve got another story 🙂
    “Another interesting site on Genforum is the Medieval forum ”
    Mmmm, I’ve heard rumors about that place, from folk on the HF forum. I understand it can get a bit heated. Anyone have real experience there?

  31. Noswaith Dda, Ken!
    I managed to get a membership since I was visiting Aberystwyth at the time. I haven’t used it much, though. Work doesn’t leave me much time to do research.
    O ble dych chi’n dod?
    Dw i’n byw ym Mhen Argyl.
    Iechyd Da,
    Dave

  32. Sharon,
    I’m going to attempt to be at the West Chester leg of your book tour. I can’t make any guarantees, but I hope to get there, and meet you.
    Iechyd Da,
    Dave

  33. Wow, Dave, that would be great! What are you doing on this side of the pond? I’ve just finished putting up the book tour itinerary on Facebook, having made the plunge yesterday; actually my publisher pushed me off the diving board. I am clueless, of course, about what I am doing, but hope to muddle through. If any of you are on Facebook, consider this an invitation to “friend” me! Back to you, Dave, I really do hope you can make it.

  34. Struggling with your Welsh question Dave!! Are you asking where I came from or asking if I’ve got a headache/heartache???? School Welsh disappeared long ago! Just know the usual phrases and a few rugby songs now!
    Originally from Cardiff, but left for sunnier climes when in early twenties. Lucky you being able to meet up with SKP

  35. Well Sharon,
    you made me join Facebook!!!!!!!
    Just to tell how little I know – how do I “friend” you?
    I enjoy your blog very much, I don’t know what difference Facebook will do, it can’t be better!
    Monica.

  36. My thoughts too! I hope Facebook doesn’t take over from this blog and the possibility to contact you by email with particular questions!
    I think it is incredible how much time you already devote to your readers and wonder if you will be able to continue to devote this time, if you get involved with hundreds of ‘friends’ on Facebook.
    BTW, as you probably know, researching the children of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth and Joanna is proving to be extremely complex. So many different theories and so much confusion between the names of those children born to them and those born to Ll ab I and Tangwystl (or ‘other’ mistresses/wives!).
    I have read the AN of Barbara Erskine’s ‘Child of the Phoenix,’ and she came across the same problem when researching the origins of her ‘Elen’, ‘Helen,’ or ‘Eleyne.’ Finally, she gave up and decided that that was where the novelist had to take over from the historian and ‘invented’ Eleyne’s story!
    I have made some progress, but there are many conflicting views and I have yet to make my own mind up which I prefer (as if I know anything!!).
    I have two Elen’s (Helen’s), one by Joanna and one by Tangwystl and also a possible mix up between a ‘Susanna’ and a ‘Gwenllian verch Llywelyn,’ who married into Scots blood! Also that one of them was a child of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and not Llywelyn ab Iorwerth!! Help!!!!

  37. Monica, I think you can “friend” me by finding me on the search engine and then you should be given the option of doing so. But I could be totally wrong, of course! Not to worry, though, guys; I’d never desert our blog community for Facebook. Ken, you are going to make a lot of friends if you can unravel some of the mystery surrounding Joanna and Llewelyn’s offspring. I am personally rooting for you to prove that Gwladys was Joanna’s daughter, as I always liked her, and the Yorkist kings trace their descent through the de Mortimers and Gwladys married one of that clan. I can tell you something definite about Elen, Joanna’s daughter who wed the Earl of Chester and then Robert de Quincy. I was elated when I found a document in the Calendar of Inquisitions which provided her death date, the one I used in Shadow, and also listed the names of her three daughters. Only two of them are known to have wed, so I am guessing the third may have become a nun.
    Well, back to work. I am reading blood-chilling medieval accounts of travels by sea in the MA, in preparation for the fun ahead when Richard and company finally get to sail from Sicily. I hope everyone is having a good weekend Probably not in Phoenix, though; Cindy says it is supposed to be 115 degrees there today.

  38. Hi Sharon – just quick question in the Facebook thing…which Sharon Penman are you? Are the one with the pretty flowers as a profile pic? I’d hate to “friend” the wrong Sharon!!!

  39. Shwmai, Ken!
    Actually, you got it right the first time. I was asking where you come from. The second sentence states that I live in Pen Argyl. At least I hope that’s what I typed. Some of those mutations can be tricky. As for Sharon’s question, “What are you doing on this side of the pond?”, I’m just waiting to go back to Cymru. I’m actually an american of Welsh descent, through both my Mother’s, and Father’s side of the family. There are names in the family like Jones, Prichard, and Owens, in the family.
    I managed to pick up some Welsh by using a cd rom from linguashop.com called Teach Me Welsh. Some of the best money I ever spent, that was. But, before anyone goes bombarding me with Welsh, I only know a little.
    Iechyd Da,
    (Good Health)
    Dave.

  40. Hi Sharon and All,
    I am compelled to tell you, I tried to watch The Lion In Winter starring Patrick Stewart and Glenn Close and I couldn’t!
    The characterization of Henry II was pretty good, but the writer has John as a fat, inept, stupid, greedy, homely teenager. From all my reading, wasn’t John skilled in arms, smart and attractive? Then Eleanor’s and Richard’s exchanges were bitter and hateful, not the loving and trusting relationship they actually shared. There were other things that were off kilter, for instance Eleanor wearing armor and riding with Richard and Geoffrey when they fought their father, but I was putting up with them, then it got to be too much!
    I sincerely hope that other people do not judge or believe all that they see on the screen when they watch this play/movie.
    I read Margaret Pargeter’s Princes of Gwennedd quartet and commented to you. The history was virtually the same as yours, so you both support each other’s research. The personal stories varied, which is to be expected as the books were written 30 years apart and the audience has changed as has what is expected in a novel. Pargeter was writing for the mores of her time (no illegitamcy mentioned!) or acceptance or mention of Llewellyn’s liasons before he finally married Elen at the age of 50. There was one comment about him being celibate prior to his marriage.
    That being said, I absolutely loved Here Be Dragons, Falls the Shadow and The Reckoning. I wish it had been a happier ending for Wales, but history cannot be tampered with that much!
    I love your comment to Ken about Othon allowing him to write about Joanna, etc. You have mentioned that your characters seem to have minds of their own (a la Hywel). Gotta keep those characters in line!
    You mention that Richard is giving you a hard time! Well, that was his nature!
    Keep up the good work and I may join Facebook just to stay with you and your audience.

  41. Hi, Gayle,
    No wonder you didn’t like that version of Lion in Winter; it sounds awful. The only one as far as I am concerned is the 1969 film with an amazing cast–Peter O’Toole as Henry, Katharine Hepburn as Eleanor, Anthony Hopkins as Richard, Timothy Dalton as Philippe, and John Castle as Geoffrey; sorry, I don’t remember who played John or Alys. John was portrayed as a bit of a buffoon in this one, too, and James Goldman later apologized for it, saying he hadn’t been fair to John; in fact, he wrote a novel about John called Myself as Witness. Aside from the historical inaccuracies–primarily the idea that Richard and Philippe had ever been lovers–it is simply good fun, highly entertaining, with some dialogue I’d have given anything to write. But even the dialogue is not really medieval, as in this exchange between Henry and Eleanor. H: “You’re like a democratic drawbridge, going down for anyone.” El: “At my age, there’s not much traffic.” Not at all medieval, obviously. But fun. When I gave my keynote speech at the HNS last month, I talked about the need for historical accuracy when writing my sort of fiction, but made an exception for The Lion in Winter.
    I’ve never learned to keep my characters in line; they all seem to have minds of their own and sometimes develop in ways I’d not anticipated. This is happening now with Berengaria. Elmore Leonard says that he doesn’t even have a plot when he starts many of his novels. He creates his characters and then gives them the ball and lets them run with it. Of course if I did that with my characters, they’d happily rewrite history. Wales would be an independent country today and there’d never have been a Tudor dynasty and Simon de Montfort would have won at Evesham. Now back to the perils of medieval sea voyages.

  42. Hi, Michele,
    You mean there is more than one of me? Yikes. I am signed up as Sharon Kay Penman, and there is no mistaking my “page, ” as it has the same photo from my website and references to my books. If you have trouble, I can just “friend” you; did you sign up as Michele O’Connor?
    Dave, I am very impressed that you have been able to pick up some Welsh while living in the States. I tried it, but it is so unlike the Romance languages that I got nowhere, realizing I’d need to learn in a structured class environment. And of course they are not easy to find over here, at least not in the Jersey Pine Barrens. So I had to settle for learning how to pronounce it properly, albeit with an American accent. It is a beautiful language; I loved to listen to the Welsh televison station when I was over there even if I didn’t know what they were talking about.
    And now I am really going back to work….really.

  43. Sharon, I don’t know what’s going on, but you’re actually somewhat hard to find on facebook. I looked up both Sharon Kay Penman and Sharon Penman and couldn’t find you. I eventually found you by looking you up by your email address, but for some reason it is referring to you as Sharon Kay everywhere other than the top of your page (although when I looked up that name, I couldn’t find you in the first 50 pages of matches either!). BTW, your picture is there, but there is no reference to your books for people who haven’t been accepted as your friend yet — any information other than your picture and friend list is hidden. Anyway, just thought you should know — I’ve no idea if anything can or should be done about it.

  44. Ken: A gentleman just answered my query on Genforum thusly: “Complete Peerage 1:22 (Cockayne, 1887) is unequivocal in stating that Gwaladus Ddu was a daughter of the Princess Joan.”

  45. Hi, Marilyn. But does he give a source for that? I have the Complete Peerage set, will check it and let you all know what it says. I am guessing–no source. Otherwise historians and genealogists would have been categorically claiming Gwladys as Joanna’s for many years. Wouldn’t it be gratifying, though, if we could solve this mystery?

  46. Hi Sharon,
    Great blog as usual! My everyday world of Optometry has been so busy in the last few weeks that I have no time to add anything else. Reading this blog is a great way to unwind after yet another ocular emergency or challenging case. It also reminds me how lucky I am to live in the 21st century and can enjoy the benefits of modern medicine.

  47. Hi Sharon,
    I’ve just heard from Othon who is on his way back after burying his father and becoming Lord of Grandson. He says I should now spend a bit more time on him if I can spare it (a bit sarcastic if you ask me!) and spend less time on the children of Llywelyn Fawr and Joanna/Tangwystl.
    On this point, I have written a summary of my findings, but it is probably too long to post here. Would it be better if I emailed it to you so that you can condense it and/or ‘hyperlink’ it to one of your blogs for those that might be interested?
    Noswaith Da!
    Ken

  48. Hi, Ken. Sounds like Othon has adopted the Angevin “lowly scribe” approach. You wouldn’t want to hear Richard’s reaction to my putting his departure for Outremer on hold so I could join Facebook. For those who e-mailed me about trouble finding me on it–apparently I have an invisibility cloak–we are still trying to solve the glitch.
    I wouldn’t want to edit your findings, Ken, am sure everyone will want to read the full account, as I do. I would be happy to link it to my next blog, but what in the world is a hyperlink? Remember you’re dealing with a computer semi-illiterate here. And thank you so much for this, even if it did vex Othon. Once the link is up, I’ll mention it on my Facebook page, for I am sure readers of Here Be Dragons will be very interested.

  49. Oh, Sharon, it’s quite easy to find you on Facebook. Anyone can join the Sharon Kay Penman Fan Club, and once you do, it’s easy to find Sharon – either on the Wall, on the list of Members, in the discussion board under ‘Welcome Sharon’, etc.

  50. Sharon,
    Going to have to postpone sending my thoughts on the children of Llywelyn Fawr and Joanna for a couple of days. I’ve come across a new source of information, that I have to check out. To say the least, the genealogists are somewhat divided into those who believe that Gwladus Dhu was the daughter of Tangwystl and those who believe that she was the daughter of Joanna. Some of their exchange of correspondence/posts are quite vitriolic and some border on libel!
    You say you are rooting for Gwladus to be proven as Joanna’s daughter. Even though in ‘HBD’, p.218, you have Llywelyn telling his bride-to-be that he already has six children, including Gruffudd aged 10, Gwladus, aged 8, Marared, aged 6 and Gwenllian, almost 5?? Not counting his twins.
    The genealogists camps seem to be divided along those who believe she is Tangwystl’s daughter by chronogical ‘proof.’ e.g. Gwladus ‘married’ in 1215 to a 44 yr old Reginald de Braose, could not have been born after 1205 (say 1206/07) as she would then have been too young to be married. ergo, she must have been born before Joanna and Llywelyn’s marriage (BTW, you have it in 1206, others, the majority, I think, have it in 1205!). This chronology is obviously contested hotly. For example the ‘marriage’ could have been a simple ‘betrothal of a 7yr old girl in a ‘political’ marriage. Gwladus had no children by Reginald, so possibly the marriage was never finalised or consummated. However, upon her second marriage to Ralph de Mortimer, she immediately started a family!!
    Proponents for her to have been Joanna’s daughter (and I am starting to be one of them!), cite the fact that she accompanied her ‘brother’ Dafydd to King Henry’s court in 1229, supporting him in his recognition by the English crown as the heir to Llywelyn, therby assisting in the disinheriting of her supposed blood brother Gruffudd!
    In addition, and I’m limiting myself here as it is getting too long (I will put the rest in my summary later), Gwladus named two of her children by Roger Mortimer, ‘John’ and ‘Joan’! hardly the names a daughter of Tangwystl would choose! The genealogists have checked back and can find no previous ‘John’s’ or ‘Joan’s’ in the Mortimer family, so there was no precedent there!
    I have had to go crawling back to Othjon for some more time, but it seems ok as he is on his way to Gascony to Join Edward who is starting to assert himself and aligning himself with Simon de Montfort against his own Dad!

  51. Great blog!
    Hmm. I know of one book like the novel you were asking about, only the woman moved to Yorkshire, not Northumbria. I don’t suppose that could be it? The title was “The Founding” by Cynthia Harrod-Eagles, if that helps any.

  52. Hi Sharon,
    I got curious about something as I was reading Saints, and now while reading T&C. I know it was not uncommon in the MA for 1st cousins to marry, since it was more often a political union than companionate. But I was wondering about your choice to have Ranulf and Rhiannon be first cousins? I am intrigued since they are fictional–you could have had them be unrelated and it probably would have worked well, too. Was it just to keep it as realistic as possible to the MA? Just wondering! 🙂
    Cindy was right–it was about 115 last weekend, and humid to boot because we had storms. Bleh. One storm blew my giant acacia tree down and so I’ve spent the last 3 days chopping that and getting it hauled off. I guess that’s one way to get rid of the dove that perpetually built a nest and made messes over my driveway! LOL.

  53. Kristen,actually, it was uncommon in the MA for first cousins to wed. The Church took a very strict line on consanguinity. Louis and Eleanor were able to dissolve their marriage because they were related to the fourth degree, and the Church cast the net as wide as the seventh degree until the 13th century. But in Wales, it was common to wed cousins; they had a saying “Marry in the kin and fight the feud with the stranger.” Naturally the Church did not approve, but the Welsh did not seem to have been bothered much by their disapproval, though Thomas Becket tangled with Llewelyn’s grandfather Owain Gwynedd over this.
    Having Ranulf marry his cousin gave me a chance to contrast the Welsh Celtic society with the English feudal one, and it made sense dramatically. The only reason Ranulf was taken in by Rhiannon’s father was because he was their blood-kin.

  54. Huh. I knew about the consanguinity issue, but for some reason I thought it was still fairly common for political or whatever reason. Thanks for setting me straight! 🙂 Maybe that’s why I like the Welsh so much–there are so many things they just don’t seem to give a toss about what others think!
    Ranulf is, by the way, one of my favorite characters.

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