INTERVIEW WITH MARY SHARRATT

Penman

     I am very pleased to welcome Mary Sharratt.  Mary is an American writer now living in Lancashire, England, the author of three acclaimed novels, including The Vanishing Point.  Her new novel, Daughters of the Witching Hill, is a dramatic, compelling, true story of the Pendle Witches, nine villagers accused of witchcraft in 1612 Lancashire.  

How did you come to write a novel about the Pendle Witches of 1612?

 

In 2002, I moved to the Pendle region of Lancashire, England—the rugged Pennine landscape that borders the West Yorkshire Dales. My study window looks out on Pendle Hill, famous throughout the world as the place where George Fox received the ecstatic vision that moved him to found the Quaker religion in 1652.

 

But Pendle Hill is also steeped in its legends of the Lancashire Witches. Everywhere you go in the surrounding countryside, you see images of witches: on buses, pubs signs, road signs, bumperstickers. Visiting American friends found this all quite unnerving. “Mary, why are there witches everywhere?” they’d ask me.

 

In the beginning, I made the mistake of thinking that these witches belonged to the realm of fairy tale and folklore, but no. They were real people. The stark truth, when I took the time to learn it, would change me forever. 

 

So who were these Pendle Witches?

 

In 1612, in one of the most meticulously documented trials in English history, seven women and two men from Pendle Forest were hanged as witches, condemned on “evidence” provided by a nine-year-old girl and her brother, who appeared to suffer from learning difficulties. The trial itself might never have happened had it not been for King James I’s obsession with the occult. His book Daemonologie—required reading for local magistrates—warned of a vast conspiracy of satanic witches threatening to undermine the nation.  

 

Out of the twelve accused Pendle Witches, why did you specifically choose Mother Demdike and her granddaughter Alizon Device as your heroines?

 

Mother Demdike, called Bess in my novel, had the most infamous reputation. According to the primary sources, she was the ringleader, the one who initiated the others into witchcraft. Demdike was so frightening to her foes because she was a woman who embraced her powers wholeheartedly. This is how Court Clerk Thomas Potts describes her in The Wonderfull Discoverie of Witches in the Countie of Lancaster, his account of the 1612 trials:

 

She was a very old woman, about the age of Foure-score yeares, and had

been a Witch for fiftie yeares. Shee dwelt in the Forrest of Pendle, a vast

place, fitte for her profession: What shee committed in her time, no man

knowes. . . . Shee was a generall agent for the Devill in all these partes: no

man escaped her, or her Furies.

 

Not bad for an eighty-year-old lady! What intrigued me is that although she died in prison before she could come to trial, Potts pays a great deal of attention to her, going out of his way to convince his readers that she was a dangerous witch of long-standing repute. Reading the trial transcripts against the grain, I was amazed at how Bess’s strength of character blazed forth in the document written expressly to vilify her.

 

Bess freely admitted to being a healer and a cunning woman. Her neighbours called on her to cure their children and their cattle. What fascinated me was not that Bess was arrested and imprisoned but that the authorities only turned on her near the end of her long, productive life. She practiced her craft for decades before anybody dared to interfere with her.

 

In contrast her granddaughter Alizon, who appeared to be a teenager at the time of her trial, seemed to view her own powers with a mixture of bewilderment and terror. Her misadventures in struggling to come to terms with this troubling birthright unleashed the tragedy which led to her arrest and the downfall of her entire family. Although the first to be accused of witchcraft, Alizon was the last to be tried at Lancaster. Her final recorded words on the day before she was hanged were a passionate vindication of her grandmother’s legacy as a healer. 

 

Why was it so important to write this novel in the first person?

 

Many other books have been written about the Pendle Witches—both fiction and nonfiction, nuanced and lurid. But even some of the better books, such as Robert O’Neill’s delightful novel Mist Over Pendle, tend to portray Mother Demdike and her family as sad, pathetic, ignorant misfits.

 

The whole purpose of my novel was to retell the Pendle Witch tragedy from the accused witch’s point of view. I yearned to give Bess and Alizon what their world denied them—their own voice.  

 

The landscape plays such a strong role in the novel. Why is that?

 

It meant a great deal to me to inhabit the same landscape as my characters. Bess and Alizon’s lives unfolded almost literally in my backyard. Researching this book wasn’t a mere exercise of reading books, then typing sentences into my computer. To do justice to the story, I had to go out into the land—literally walk in my characters’ footsteps. Using the Ordinance Survey Map, I located the site of Malkin Tower, once home to Bess and her family. Now only the foundations remain. I board my horse (who makes a cameo appearance in the novel as Alice Nutter’s horse) near Read Hall, once home to Roger Nowell, the witchfinder and prosecuting magistrate responsible for sending the Pendle Witches to their deaths. Every weekend, I walked or rode my chestnut mare down the tracks of Pendle Forest. Quietening myself, I learned to listen, to allow my heroines’ voices to well up from the land. Their passion, their tale enveloped me.

 

You say Bess was a cunning woman. Who were the historical cunning folk? 

 

Our ancestors believed that magic was real. Not only the poor and ignorant believed in witchcraft and the spirit world—rich and educated people believed in spellcraft just as strongly. Cunning folk were men and women who used charms and herbal cures to heal, foretell the future, and find the location of stolen property. What they did was technically illegal, but most of them didn’t get arrested for it. The need for the services they provided was too great. Doctors were so expensive that only the very rich could afford them and the “physick” of this era involved bleeding patients with lancets and using dangerous medicines such as mercury—your local village healer with her herbal charms was far less likely to kill you.

 

Those who used their magic for good were called cunning folk or charmers or blessers or wisemen and wisewomen. Those who were perceived by others as using their magic to curse and harm were called witches. But here it gets complicated. A cunning woman who performs a spell to discover the location of stolen goods would say that she is working for good. However, the person who claims to have been falsely accused of harbouring those stolen goods could turn around and accuse her of sorcery and slander. At the end of the day, the difference between cunning folk and witches lay in the eye of the beholder. If your neighbours turned against you and decided you were a witch, you were doomed.  

 

How do your Pendle Witches of 1612 differ from the more familiar Salem Witches of 1692?

 

While 17th century Salem was a fairly homogenous Puritan society, Lancashire was anything but. Despite Henry VIII’s sacking of Whalley Abbey and the laws of religious conformity passed by his daughter Elizabeth I, the Reformation was slow to take root here. Many influential families of the gentry remained stubbornly Catholic in the face of persecution and death. Moreover, in the viewpoint of many Protestants, witchcraft and Catholicism were conflated. “No part of England hath so many witches,” Edward Fleetwood states in his 1645 pamphlet describing Lancashire, “none fuller of Papists.” Even Reginald Scot, one of the most enlightened men of the English Renaissance, thought the act of transubstantiation, the point in the Catholic mass where it is believed that the host becomes the body and blood of Christ, was an act of sorcery.

 

Mother Demdike’s family’s charms recorded in the trial transcripts mirror the ecclesiastical language of the pre-Reformation Church. Her incantation to cure a bewitched person, quoted by the prosecution as evidence of diabolical magic, is a moving and poetic depiction of the passion of Christ as witnessed by the Virgin Mary. This text is very similar to the White Pater Noster, an Elizabethan prayer charm Eamon Duffy discusses in his landmark book, The Stripping of the Altars: Traditional Religion in England: 1400-1580.

 

It appears that Mother Demdike, born in Henry VIII’s reign, at the cusp of the Reformation, was a practitioner of the kind of quasi-Catholic folk magic that would have been fairly common in earlier generations. The Old Church embraced many practices that seemed magical and mystical. People believed in miracles. They used holy water and communion bread for healing. Candles blessed at the Feast of Candlemas warded the faithful from demons and disease. People left offerings at holy wells and invoked the saints in their folk charms. Some rituals such as the blessing of wells and fields may have Pagan origins. Indeed, looking at pre-Reformation folk magic, it seems difficult to untangle the strands of Catholicism from the remnants of Pagan belief which had become so tightly interwoven. Keith Thomas’s social history Religion and the Decline of Magic is an excellent study on how the Reformation literally took the magic out of Christianity.

   

So are you saying that Mother Demdike and her family at Malkin Tower were merely misunderstood practitioners of Catholic folk magic?   

 

Alas, the truth seems more complicated than that. Although her charms drew on the mystical imagery of the pre-Reformation Church, Bess and her sometimes-friend, sometimes-rival Anne Whittle, aka Chattox, accused each other of using clay figures to curse their enemies. Both women freely confessed, even bragged about their familiar spirits who appeared to them in the guise of beautiful young men. Bess’s description of her decades-long partnership with Tibb seems to reveal something much older than Christianity.

 

So who was Tibb? The devil?

 

No. The devil, as such, played a very minor role in English witchcraft. Instead the familiar spirit took centre stage: this was the cunning person’s otherworldly spirit helper who could shapeshift between human and animal form. Bess described how Tibb could appear as a golden-haired young man, a hare, or a brown dog. In traditional English folk magic, it seemed that no cunning man or cunning woman could work magic without the aid of their familiar spirit—they needed this otherworldly ally to make things happen.

 

What’s next? Do you have a new novel in progress?

 

My current novel-in-progress Know the Ways will reveal the life of Hildegard von Bingen (1098-1179), Benedictine abbess. She was an incredible character, a polymath who composed an entire corpus of music and wrote books on subjects as diverse as natural science, medicine and human sexuality—she’s credited as the first person to describe the female orgasm in depth. A mystic and visionary, her prophecies earned her the title Sybil of the Rhine.

 

Her story arc is amazing. Born in an age of deep-seated misogyny, her parents offered her as a tithe to the Church at the age of seven, yet she triumphed to become one of the greatest voices of her age. And she’s not so far removed from my historical witches as one might think. She healed with herbs, crystals and gemstones and was guided by visions. I suspect that if she had been born a few centuries later, she might well have been burned as a witch.

     Thank you, Mary.  I was fortunate enough to read Daughters of the Witching Hill before it was published and I thought it was a very powerful story.

April 6, 2010

 

 

108 thoughts on “INTERVIEW WITH MARY SHARRATT”

  5. Wow! How fascinating to learn about how magic shifted along with religious belief! Wonderful interview! I will definitely read this! Thank you!

  6. And today, William X of Aquitaine (Eleanor’s father) died, as well as Edward (Ned) IV of York, and Edward of Middleham, Prince of Wales, Richard and Anne’s only son.
    On a different note, I’m planning to finally get to Acre today, and hope to upload pictures of the fortress and the tunnel when I come back.

  7. On April 9, 1483, Edward IV died unexpectedly, just three weeks shy of his 41st birthday. His premature death would prove tragic for his children, for his brother Richard and Richard’s own family, setting events in motion that would end the Plantagenet dynasty
    Thanks for posting this, Koby. We count on you for this! One minor correction, though. Richard’s son, Edward of Middleham, did not die on the 9th of April. This was a falsehood put about by his enemies, for if his son had died on the very day that his brother had, surely that must mean God was punishing him for usurping the crown.
    I can’t wait to see the photos of Acre!

  8. Yeah, that’s the problem with official claendars – they never bother to correct themselves. And that’s alos the problem of letting people borrow your books… you can’t check them to make sure.
    I’ve uploaded all the pictures to the Sharon Kay Penman Fan Club group on Facebook

  9. Wow, this sounds like a fascinating read! I have never heard of the Pendle Witches before, though I’ve long had an interest in the various witch crazes in history. Adding this to my mega-wish list on Amazon. thanks for the recommendation and interview, Sharon and Mary!

  10. On April 11, 1240. the greatest of the Welsh princes, Llywelyn ab Iorwerth died at Aberconwy Abbey. Sadly, he was not able to rest in peace, for his tomb was disturbed when Edward I forced the monks to move so he could build Conwy Castle on the site. Llywelyn’s empty tomb rests peacefully today in the riverside chapel at Llanrwst. Joanna’s empty tomb is in the church of St Mary in Beaumaris. If it were up to me, I’d bring them both to Bangor Cathedral.

  11. Well, you beat me this time, Sharon. Then again, I’ve only just got hom after waking up at five o’clock to go to an interview at a college in Jerusalem, so I suppose that’s understandable… Next time, I will win! Ha ha ha ha ha!

  12. While this isn’t connected to Sharon’s books, she did recommend it, so I’ll mention that today Joanna of Castile, also known as Juana la Loca died.

  13. Thanks for reminding us about Juana, Koby. Yes, I liked The Last Queen very much. Christopher (Gortner) has a new one coming out next month about the very controversial Catherine de Medici, which I also recommend.
    PS I hope the college interview went well, Koby.

  14. Oh, it went excellently. I got accepted. Now all I need is to work it through with the army and ‘officially’ finish High School.

  16. Sharon,
    Sorry I didn’t get to reply to your email. Work has been VERY hectic lately. Anyway, I hope you had a good easter as well. By the way your welsh is getting better than mine. I actually had to use my Welsh-English dictionary to deciphre some of your message.
    Iechyd da,
    Dave

  17. And today, the Battle of Barnet took place, in which Edward Iv defeated Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick. Both Richard and his brother John, Marquess of Montagu died on the field.

  18. Sharon,
    After all seeing all of the men who contribute to this blog I suggested to my husband that he might like your books (he usually doesn’t read fiction). He has been totally entranced. He has finished ‘Here Be Dragons’ and now is making his way through ‘Falls the Shadow’. I have been getting a daily report of what’s happening with Llewellyn and Joanna – now on to Llewelyn the younger. It has been such fun to see him discovering your books, and I frequently hear from him what a great author you are and how absorbing your books are.
    I’m just hoping that ‘When Christ and His Saints Slept’ becomes available in Kindle format before he makes his way through the Welsh trilogy and ‘The Sunne in Splendor’. I keep checking every day.
    Thank you for the many hours of enjoyment your books have brought us:)

  19. Susan, I am so glad your husband is enjoying my books. My publishers have always told me that I am unusual for a historical fiction novelist in that my readers seem split almost evenly between men and women and they say as a rule, historical fiction draws more female than male readers.
    Thanks for the reminder about Barnet, Koby; I’ve been so involved with the first Richard’s bloodletting that I’d forgotten about the third Richard’s baptism by fire!

  20. Thank-you Sharon Again! Wonderful To hear About Books to be Recomended,…..and Koby, great insight-into Castles etc, I know my British Castles?……..”Would Love to Vist Outremer-Fortress;s” A Bit Like The Young (Lawrence) Entranced By it All………Thank-you Again.

  21. And today, Theobald le Bec, Archbishop of Canterbury during Steven’s reign and Henry’s and Thomas Becket’s mentor died.

  22. Richard is now trying to drag his men out of the fleshpots of Acre so he can start his march south. His chronicler, Amroise, who was an eye-witness, reported “the town was delightful with good wines and girls, some very beautiful. They frequented the women and enjoyed the wine, taking their foolish pleasure, so that there was in the town such unseemliness, such sin and such lust that worthy men were ashamed by what the others were doing.” With luck, we’ll get this show on the road by tomorrow, but I may be late putting up another blog until the army reaches Jaffa. I’ll send some battle dispatches from the march, though!

  23. That’s good to know, Sharon.
    Today Richard de Clare (Strongbow) died. Also, Happy Independence Day!

  26. Of course it would, just as Americans would assume an Independence Wish would mean us around July 4th. Happy Independence day! Is it a national holiday in Israel?

  27. Yes, it is. There are celebrations and ceremonies in the evening (since the Jewish day starts from the evening, and Israel’s Independence Day is celebrated according to its’ Hebrew date, of course), in the day there’s a special prayer in the morning, and most people go on hikes and have cook-outs. Also, the World Bible Quiz takes place in Jerusalem on that day.
    On other matters, I have it written here that Henry VII (VIII in my counting) died today.

  28. On April 21,1910, one of my very favorite writers, Mark Twain, died. How can you not love a man who said “There is no distinctly native American criminal class, except Congress.” Or “The difference between the right word and the nearly right word is the difference between lightning and lightning bug.” Or “Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated
    And if this is the anniversary of Henry Tudor’s death, Koby, I’ll drink a glass of wine to that!

  29. And today, Adeliza of Louvain, Henry I’s second wife who later married William d’Aubigny, Earl of Arundel died.

  30. Happy St George’s day to all your English fans. Happily, this was the last occasion when a dragon was so cruelly slain as, thanks to the WSPCD (Welsh Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Dragons), dragons were thereafter given protected status.
    So, although few in number they continue to inhabit the heights of Eryri (Snowdonia), where, if you make the ascent at night and remain really, really quiet, you may catch a glimpse of one of them. Don’t let them see you however, unless you want to be barbecued!
    So, in spite of the efforts of our sometimes less than friendly neighbours, Welshmen can still proudly say, “Here Be Dragons!”

  31. Sharon Kay Penman Today is the day traditionally associated with the birth of William Shakespeare, and it is, of course, the day, too, upon which he died. Being born and dying on the same day really does close the circle, doesn’t it? This happened to Elizabeth of York, too. Today is also “Talk like Shakespeare Day.” http://www.ex…aminer.com/x-33846-Minneapolis-Homeschooling-Examiner~y2010m4d23-Today-is-Talk-Like-Shakespeare-Day
    Ken, I’d definitely join the WSPCD! I would like to believe in unicorns, but I do believe in dragons. And thanks again, Koby, for keeping us up to date about medieval births and deaths. I hope you’ll still have time for us once you go off to university.

  32. You’re welcome, Sharon. I’ll certainly try. And of course, you probably remember what I said last time regarding dying and being born on the same day.

  33. Yes, I do, Koby. I apologize again to one and all for taking so long to get a new blog up. But I am still bogged down in Outremer, as Richard tries to get his army from Acre to Jaffa alive and intact, while Saladin is determined to force him into battle. Thanks to the eye-witness chroniclers, this is a fascinating (at least to me) glimpse of a medieval army on the march. Because of the extreme heat, they marched only in the mornings, pitched camp at noon, and rested every other day. Richard’s fleet shadowed the army and he had the sick and injured transferred to the ships. Military historians consider this Richard’s greatest accomplishment as a general–keeping his army on the move, refusing to be provoked into breaking formation by constant Saracen attacks. Baha al-Din, Saladin’s chronicler, said that some of the men has so many arrows imbedded in their hauberks that they looked like hedgehogs!

  34. What ‘extreme heat’? They weren’t in the Judean Desert or the Negev! It was the Coastal Plain, for Lord’s Sake! It’s rare for it to be above 33 Degrees Celsius there, and there’s a nice sea breeze anyways!

  35. Koby, the chronicles all talk of the extreme heat, of men dying of sunstroke and being buried where they fell, the others being transported to the ships. Now maybe the climate has changed in 800 years. I can only tell you what the men who were there reported, and the weather was a huge concern for them–the heat in summer and the cold and rain in winter. They talked about that a lot, too. surely you don’t think Richard would have marched only in the early mornings if his men were being cooled by comfortable sea breezes! The Europeans did not seem to acclimate well to life in Outremer; I recently read one scholar’s commentary that it was not unusual in the 12th and 13th centuries to find Saracens or native Christians reaching the age of 80, but almost unheard-of for the Franks to live that long, especially men.

  36. I find it hard ot believe it’s gotten cooler since then. After all, aren’t people telling us it’s getting hotter with the advent of industry?
    And I find it hard to believe they were bothered by rain and cold in the winter. It can’t possibly be colder or rainier than England in Israel. Even if you believe it was cooler and rainier back then, it still couldn’t have been as bad as England. We almost never get snow for example – a lasting snowfall occurs maybe once in 25 years.

  37. Koby, I will happily believe you when you tell me about weather conditions in Israel today. When it comes to weather conditions 800 years ago, I am going to accept the testimony of the men who experienced it at the time and then wrote about it. There certainly have been changes in climate in Europe and the US over the centuries. How about the Little Ice Age? Reading accounts of our Revolutionary War, it is obvious that colonial soldiers suffered from far more severe winters than we do in the Mid-Atlantic states today–aside from our recent Snowmageddon, of course! I am sorry, but Richard’s eye-witness chroniclers have greater credibility than you do about this particular subject.

  38. I would also think that marching in armor, rather than strolling in say, a bikini and flipflops, would make a considerable difference in comfort levels and relative heat tolerance. Wasn’t that also an era when England as a whole had higher average temperatures than it would in later centuries? I can readily imagine that the Mediterranean climate was a bit warmer. Even the change of a few degrees in the average temperature can make a HUGE difference if you’re not acclimated.

  39. being a canadian transplant in the holy land i can only whole heartedly agree with 800 year old weather accounts!! koby you failed to mention the 75% humidity that accompanies that 33 degree weather which in my book makes it hotter than hell!

  40. I may be incommunicado for a while–no problems, just busy fighting the battle of Arsuf. Usually I take breaks, but Lionheart is insisting that I give him first priority, and I’d rather not argue with a man holding a sword But once the dust clears and the dead are buried, I’ll get to work doing the next blog.

  41. 33 Celsius, with or without humidity, is plenty hot, especially wearing protective clothing. It should also be remembered that European armies did not usually fight in winter.
    Sharon, let Richard lead the way. We can wait for updates.

  42. Whatever. They were probably just wimps.
    Don’t attack me, I’m joking!
    In other matters, David I of Scotland was crowned king today.

  43. And today, Conrad of Montferrat was assassinated, Edward IV of England was born, and Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland, was killed by a mob led by Sir John Egremont, possibly in revenge for Richard III.

  44. Yup, wimps for sure. Thanks for the chuckle, Koby, and for the historical calendar dates.

  45. A quick dispatch from the battlefield to let all know that the body count is adding up. And on April 28, 1442, Edward IV of England was born. I’ve always had a soft spot for Edward; he was such fun to write about.
    PS Koby, I can’t believe I actually beat you for once in posting an important medieval date!

  46. I have no idea about what you’re talking about, Sharon. Not only did I preempt you by about nine hours, I also beat you for quantity.

  47. Amazingly enough, when I read your post, Koby, I must have focused on Conrad’s assassination and somehow missed Edward altogether–he wouldn’t like that!

  48. Just a quick note to hope that they manage to keep the oil spill from inundating the Gulf Coast communities. Meanwhile, the two enemy armies are camped so close that they can see one another’s camp fires, and they have settled down for an uneasy night’s sleep, knowing a battle is likely on the morrow. Again, apologies for such a long stretch between blogs, but blame Richard, not me!

  49. >Llywelyn’s empty tomb rests peacefully today in the riverside chapel at Llanrwst. Joanna’s empty tomb is in the church of St Mary in Beaumaris. If it were up to me, I’d bring them both to Bangor Cathedral.
    Both lovely places to visit.
    Sharon, don’t worry about the blog, keep writing that book – I’m chomping at the bit to read it!

  50. And today, Matilda of Scotland, Henry I’s first wife and mother of Empress Maude died.

  52. Happy Lag b’Omer! Regarding these dates, I’m unsure they’re correct, but I’ll post them anyway: Today Richard I of England gave Portsmouth its first Royal Charter, and William de Braose was hanged by Prince Llywelyn Fawr.

  54. And today, I have it written that Matilda of Boulogne, Sthepen’s wife and Queen of England died, and that Cecily Neville, Edward and Richard’s mother was born.

  55. Thanks, Koby. We love your updates!
    I have some good news–I’m a new mom. I adopted another shepherd on Saturday. His name is Shadow and he looks like a beautiful white wolf, albeit a very skinny one; he was half-starved when he came to the shelter. He has a sad history of abuse, but he blossomed in his foster home . Shadow was obviously an outside dog, chained up in a backyard, since his is 3 and wasn’t housebroken, and it is obvious, too, that this sweet boy was physically abused. He is timid but very loving, and gets along well with people, kids, other dogs and cats. Dogs are so forgiving and so resilient. People who work in dog rescue are earthly saints. And those who abuse the defenseless–especially children and animals–deserve a circle of their own in Dante’s Inferno.

  56. Congratulations, Sharon. I hope he gives you much happiness. I note that his name is the same as Justin’s dog.
    Today the Battle of Tewkesbury took place, where Edward IV won, and Prince Edouard (Edward), John Beaufort, John Wenlock and the Earl of Devon died on the field.

  57. And today, I have it written her that ‘Rebel barons renounce their allegiance to King John of England’.

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  89. I feel as if you simply mind-fucked me. Honestly, just like you achieved inside my brain and dragged out a fantasy I’ve had many many times and shown it back again to me. I’m completely shaken right now and 2 mere seconds out from coming. I’ve often wondered if I’d fight submission. Numerous of my fantasies have me fight, others have me submitting significantly less violently, but generally there is that little of coercion, dominance and overwhelming. I sense like I still have a nucleus of sense of guilt. I’ll know when the remorse is removed, when my fantasies alter. They are adjusting a great deal currently.Alright …plenty of talking I require to end … evening, love. *hobbles away slowly with hand already straight down performing between the hip and legs*

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